i'll paste my humorous (i hope!) post from SPAC here for those who have a sarcastic sense of humor and those who know me probably will 'get it' the most...
p.s. i met a bunch of really weird people again that go to RUSH concerts all over the country. just seems really creepy. get a life people. i mean, what kind of wack job would need to go to 5, 6, 11, 17 or so shows in a year!? what the hell does that even COST!?!? the worst of all is that a-cell-of-awareness guy with the LIFESON license plate from Colorado, he goes all over the country. where does he get the money? he sure doesn't seem very intelligent, think he dropped out of 6th grade, twice. how does he get off work to get to those shows all over, probably an unemployed bum or a white collar criminal, or a bank robber! i heard he's going to Jones Beach, that's all 4 shows this week. Why so hard-core? it's only RUSH. it's not like it's Bachman Turner Overdrive, now that would make total sense. I'm gonna stay away from him from now on...
#3 Met you in ABQ. and Phoenix for Snakes & Arrows...weird just like all of us!!
Are you going to "play two" in Red Rocks?...or am I just asking the obvious?
I'll be there with a bunch of "weirdoes!"
Have fun tonight all who are going!
Endlessly Rocking!
#8 - Posted 7/24/10 @2:47PM by Narpetof2 [contact]
About to get into the car... on my way at last! on my way at last!
#9 - Posted 7/24/10 @3:08PM by katskahnne [contact]
#3 - Love it! And I can only say...um...I wish I could afford to be weirder!!! Normal is overrated anyway... :-D
#10 - Posted 7/24/10 @3:17PM by DaveTinNY [contact]
Leaving in 10 minutes from Rockland County! :)
18th row, Ged's side.
#11 - Posted 7/24/10 @3:49PM by Bulldog81 [contact]
#3: Yeah jeez man what a loser! :D Like Katskahnne, I too wish that I could be weirder! My little slice of the State 'O Maine is far away from just about every venue that can handle Rush. Boston and Montreal are probably closest, but alas, I have no passport!
Maybe I'll get 'weirder' as more vacation time (and... winning the lottery, that's my game plan) allows. :P
For those of you who are in the Boston area and are having a hard time waiting for Sept. 14 - Lotus Land is playing in Cambridge tonight. That's about as close to RUSH as you can get. See you there!
#15 - Posted 7/24/10 @4:32PM by timintey [contact]
Rush rockin' Long Island tonight!! Enjoy it folks!
Alas - they've come and gone from Canada - so looking forward to the 2011 tour...
to those of you yet to see the current tour - you're gonna love it - awesome.
#18 - Posted 7/24/10 @7:27PM by WORKING_woMAN [contact]
jiffy lube live show is getting closer & closer--i can't wait! judging from the videos & reviews it's most excellent. what else would you expect...as gene simmons says---it's rush!
everyone enjoy tonight--lucky ducks!
#19 - Posted 7/24/10 @7:33PM by cakes and sparrows [contact]
a HUGE night for Rush tribute bands. for all those in LOS ANGELES the band CARESS OF STEEL is playing at Paladino's in the valley at 9pm. Look for me there i'll be the tall guy in the beige Rush shirt. rush on!
#20 - Posted 7/24/10 @7:48PM by bgibsonjr [contact]
November 29, 1982 to July 21, 2010
After nearly 28 years, I have probably attended my last Rush concert. I purchased my tickets for this tour both at Camden, NJ and Bristow, VA before the setlist was announced. As a man of deep Christian faith, I was disappointed that Faithless and BU2B were part of the setlist. I understand that Neil has reached a different conclusion than I have about the existence of a deity. Based on his lyrics, he seems to revile those that share my worldview as brainwashed and blindly following what I have told by others. This mindset is difficult to swallow. As it relates to me, nothing could be further from the truth. I certainly do not share the opinion of non-Christians that Neil's lyrics seems portray of those like me.
Despite all of this, I was really looking forward to hearing TCE, which I consider the greatest piece of music ever written.
I was surprised how negatively I was affected by Faithless and BU2B at the Camden concert. In addition, I was surprised that my 16 year old son was more greatly affected than I was. At intermission, we both decided we would do something that I haven't done in my 20+ Rush concerts; we left at intermission. I'm sure that many if not all of you think that we were crazy to leave. After all why spend money/time etc. Wait for TCE and then leave. Perhaps I should have waited for the setlist before I bought the tickets. In the future I probably will. However, we felt like I didn't belonged anymore. Hearing TCE didn't seem so important.
Given the direction that Clockwork Angels seems to be going, I'm sure I have attended my last Rush concert. I will be attempting to sell my Bristow tickets. I am not bitter or angry; but sad. The anticipation and excitment that I have felt for concerts and new releases is probably gone.
Obviously, there have been other Rush songs that I don't necessary agree with the lyrical content. A Passage to Bankok comes to mind. Most songs in the past can be viewed a couple of ways thus not conflicting with my faith or making me feel alienated. It is hard to interpret the songs I mentioned above more than one way.
Many of their songs continue to be very inspirational to me believe it or not. I still believe that they are unbelievable musicians.
The purpose of this post is not to dissuade anyone from continuing to follow Rush who I still consider myself to be a great fan of. It is merely to express my observations and feelings after attending one of their shows.
#21 - Posted 7/24/10 @8:00PM by Lynn-2112 [contact]
bgibsonjr (#20): Thank you for sharing your insights as a Christian Rush fan... I am sad that this song drove you to leave the concert. That must have been a really rough decision to make, all things considered. It's a real bummer that those songs got you to a point where you could no longer enjoy the show.
I feel that "Faithless" is a lot more subtle than "BU2B." It's a very live-and-let-live kind of song, at least up to the lyric, "Fools and thieves are dangerous in the temple and marketplace." "BU2B," however, must sound incredibly condescending to people with a strong faith in a higher power. I found myself on many occasions pondering how this might alienate some Rush fans.
We are, after all, a very diverse group!
#25 - Posted 7/24/10 @10:11PM by Hardnecker [contact]
#20, Why can't you just agree to disagree with the lyrics and Peart's opinions? Looks like you better stick with Christian rock. Look at all the songs out there about boozing it up and fornication. Believer or not, I could care less about Neil's opinion of anything nor am I going to take it to heart as you seem to be. Lighten up Holmes or listen to Stryper....you decide. All Neil cares about is that you show up at the hall and buy the cd's and dvd's etc. He in turn will give his best effort. It's that simple.
#26 - Posted 7/24/10 @10:22PM by musicofthespheres [contact]
#20 -- I can understand how you might feel conflicted and alienated. Faithless is about how he (and Ged; if not Al too) feel. It's not necessarily for you, unless it can help you understand how someone else thinks and lives.
But to say that Neil "seems to revile those that share my worldview as brainwashed and blindly following what I have told by others" seems like an unfair generalization. He may feel that way about those who take advantage of other people or those who try to "convert" him, but i think that's about it. He doesn't seem to have a problem w. people having their armor -- no one gets to their heaven w/out a fight, after all.
I think Rush too would be disappointed w. your reaction. I'm sure it's not their intention to offend -- Neil said in the MVI he wasn't trying to "protest" or "fight" or "make enemies".
And anyway, i think a little confusion and confliction is a good thing.
#27 - Posted 7/24/10 @10:32PM by Red Comet [contact]
#20 Sorry to hear that dude. Its a testament to how powerful their music is and how it effects people in different ways. It had the complete opposite effect on me, a light bulb came on and I realized (after the last four years of trying) I that me and religion don't belong together. I never grew up around religion (what a blessing that was, ha) so I never needed any of that stuff but at one point I needed, help I suppose, in turning a quite painful page in my life. Looking back, it wasn't some celestial force that helped me it was PEOPLE, good people that helped me get back on track. Rush's music has helped me embrace who I am and what I believe, and not let anyone or anything stuff me into a box I won't ever fit in.
#28 - Posted 7/24/10 @11:12PM by RUSHHEADDAVID [contact]
Off topic... I finally received my VIP Ticketmaster package today. The "Special Design" shirt listed in the package details, is a grey flying rocks design (crummy nock-off) I looked-up shirts on (fanfire) LiveNation which were package was being handled through, and noticed a "Special Tour" design shirt for $25. I guess I will have to order that?
I also have to find some Snakes & Arrows shirts I missed-out on in 2008 (money issues back then). I ordered the few I've seen lately on the Backstage site. I now have over 260 Rush concert, album art and specialty t-shirts in my ever growing collection. One of these days I will have to photograph them and set-up a web site so all you RUSHHEADS can view them.
#30 - Posted 7/24/10 @11:31PM by bgibsonjr [contact]
#24 - Thanks for your understanding. I do follow you on both accounts. Perhaps I do take this too personally but the "Fools and thieves" line is tough to take. I do share my faith with others but I also associate and respect those whose worldview and livestyle is in direct contrast with mine on a regular basis and count many as my friends.
In BU2B the "while our loving Watchmaker loves us all to death" is even tougher to take. As you alluded to, I find that one in particular very difficult to see another way and believe me I have tried!
great show. videos were hilarious, the steampunk aesthetic is very cool. i had issues with some song selection (knew it going in of course...)how do time stand still, presto, Leave that thing alone, stick it out, faithless and far cry get playing time while analog kid, xanadu, jacob's ladder, enemy within, and the like ride the pines? but you only get to pick 'em when you write 'em so...
it was all about camera eye for me. thx boys...
#32 - Posted 7/24/10 @11:46PM by necromancer 2112 [contact]
I can't believe how offended some people get from the songs "Faithless" and "BU2B" ! Post 26 said it well ! In BU2B, Neil isn't generalizing and saying that all people that follow a religion are "brainwashed", he is saying that SOME people blindly follow without opening their minds and personally that was what HE was brought up to believe, not necessarily what everyone else is taught or follows ! Fact is, there are some people who blindly follow without questioning and there has been and continues to be so much bloodshed resulting from people just blindly following and doing what they are told instead of questioning,which is how I think God intended us to learn! The song says "I was brought up to believe", not "you were brought up to believe" ! Neil is just a musician and writer giving his opinion and thoughts,no need to take what he writes in his lyrics so personally ! I was brought up Catholic and have my own personal relationship with God but regarding Neil and some of his tragic experiences, I can understand how he would question many things and I can personally relate to much of BU2B, but it is only a song ! Shouldn't really affect people so strongly, unless someone does blindly follow what is being told to them, or in this case, sung to them!
#33 - Posted 7/25/10 @12:01AM by RUSHHEADDAVID [contact]
#29- USPS...
Once I received the ordering instructions via e-mail, I completed and ordered it on June 4th. I received an e-mail on July 7th (after sending an e-mail inquiry a week earlier). The e-mail stated that orders will start to mail out. I sent another e-mail inquiry on July 16th, asking if there were any problems with my order. I received back an e-mail two or three days later, stating that they had fulfillment issues. (?) And I would receive an e-mail to track order when it was sent out.
I logged-into the LiveNation (fanfire) site after my package arrived this morning, and details still showed there was no shipping information for my order. Also, the "collectible tour poster (limited edition, numbered)" was a cardboard Fly By Night fake looking type of thing. I will most likely frame it and give it to a friend. I held off downloading Caravan and BU2B (but caught them on YOU TUBE a bunch) because I thought that my package would arrive sooner then it did. I have to start to listen to them a bunch more befor the August 14th show. I'm looking forward to the entire album next year.
LiveNation should get their act together, as near as I can tell, it's shame full
Re bgibsonjr's response in #20: That's just How It Is. The minute an opinion is expressed (on almost any subject), *someone* will feel alienated. Matters of faith are felt deeply. Sometimes it just can't be helped...
#35 - Posted 7/25/10 @12:12AM by toddnbeth
bgibsonjr(#20) so sorry that you and your son had such a bad experience, but have nothing but respect for your decision to leave early, since that is what you felt you needed to do. As a 27 year Rush fan and a Christian, I too am struggling with some of Neils recent lyrics. Unfortunately, it seems to me that Neil has moved beyond occasional lyrics about his world-view, such as Freewill, into the area of actively bashing Christianity, and religion in general. I find it sad and a bit pathetic that he feels the need to do this.
Necromancer2112(#32) while I understand and respect your viewpoint, I must disagree with the last thing you said. The effect that the lyrics has on a person has nothing to do with blindly following anything. For a person of real faith, that faith is the primary thing that their life is about, and not just a preference or set of principles. I don't think it is unreasonable to feel personally offended.
Having said that, I am aware of the lyrics to the songs, and am still anxiously awaiting my shows coming up. I just really hope that Neil can find something else to write about in the future.
#36 - Posted 7/25/10 @12:15AM by dgrant99 [contact]
Awesome show as usual. Those at the previous shows that thought it was slow at the beginning, or that Al looked bored must have caught them on a bad day. For me, the only slow portion was 'Faithless'- just don't think it translated well live. As for the aforementioned Mr Lifeson, he completely shredded tonight, for those of us that were there.. La Villa was soloing intensity at its finest. Camera Eye alone was worth the admission.. Closer to the Heart, etc I could go on and on. The new songs, even heavier live.
The boys got one thing wrong however, in the end video they continued the running joke of no women at Rush shows.... there were more women out tonight than Ive ever seen at a show, and they were looking good. Maybe the joke is over?
#37 - Posted 7/25/10 @12:15AM by Signals Under Pressure [contact]
Fucking amazing show. Camera Eye and La Villa were such a pleasure to hear, and the boys did a great job of cutting them both down timewise without losing the effect both songs have. As mentioned, the videos were unexpectedly hilarious. I've always chuckled at all the instances of that trademark Rush humor, but I never expected to crack up at these videos. Genius.
In my opinion, the setlist was just average. I had no idea of the setlist before the show because I wanted it to be a surprise. Aside from the given must-play songs (Moving Pix, Spirit of Radio, Caravan+BU2B, etc), the choices were somewhat disappointing. Time Stand Still and Stick It Out were great, but songs like Leave That Thing Alone was just so unnecessary not only because it was their second off Counterparts, but also given the fact that there were already 4 instrumentals in the setlist including Neil's and Alex's respective solos. I would've much rather heard something early like Xanadu, Anthem, or anything off GUP. Something like The Pass, Driven, or a VT song would've been cool too.
All in all, tonight's show was still my favorite show of all time despite my minor grievances with the setlist. I've only been to around 20 shows in my life, and 2 of them Rush shows (I'm 16, gimme a break), but I can safely say tonight was an amazing experience I'll never forget.
We're all a bunch of analytical folks here. We like to pick things apart and look for meaning. We shouldn't chastise each other over dissenting opinions and different findings.
I think that #20 was "agreeing to disagree" just fine. I wasn't struck by the lyrics like they were, but I can understand where they're coming from. Doesn't sound like they took up signs and picketed outside the venue or anything; they just left the show and posted about their feelings here. They don't strike me as the type of person to write hate mail over this kind of thing, either.
Everybody has a right to be thrown for a loop about the direction that a band takes. We're all guilty of a little hemming-and-hawing here and there, though often, we nit-pick over instrumental technique and the like instead of lyrical content.
#39 - Posted 7/25/10 @12:30AM by musicofthespheres [contact]
#32 - you said it well too..
#35 - "Neil has moved...into the area of actively bashing Christianity, and religion in general"
where? That may be how you are interpreting something, but, again, that's an unfair statement to make (especially w/out stating your case).
#30 -- why are those line "tough to take"?
I'm not looking for an argument, I just don't think these interpretations have been explained well, and yet accusations of Neil reviling and bashing his fans have been made. Do you really think that's his intention?
I agree with a bunch of the statements made since post #20. No offense to anyone ,but I am kind of surprised that the person who wrote post #20 has listened to Rush this long, really. Neil has made countless comments whether it be in his books, some of Rush's songs over the years about how HE FEELS about religion. Personally, I've always identified with how he feels about that very serious subject (among other subjects). Heck, I remember years ago, when my older brother got married (in the early 80's) and became a "born again Christian" and he went to some kind of retreat with his new wife and after that, he gave all his albums to one of her cousins , because I guess rock music of "that" kind didn't fit into his new beliefs. Among those albums would have been Fly by night and some Beatles ,Rolling stones, Jethro Tull albums (those are some of the albums I remember seeing when I was a kid). Fortunately, my other brother didn't go that "route" and I was able to hear alot of great 70's rock music and that was what formed the basis of my musical taste.
But, the point being...I had an older brother who became Christian and rock music went out the window, so it is surprising to me, that there seems to be many Rush fans who are religious. I kinda like it, actually. I also kinda liked it when I saw a few pictures from the recent concerts and saw a guy with a turbin in the front row. I think that is awesome, to see that diversity, even when so many people have different ideologies, beliefs, or lack there of.
#41 - Posted 7/25/10 @1:00AM by necromancer 2112 [contact]
I don't think Neil is bashing religion necessarily, I think he respects the fact that for many people religion is their armor and that's okay, it's when it is used as a bloody sword and used to manipulate and control people that it is used wrong ! I doubt that bgibsonjr and whatever his religious beliefs may be would fall under the category of what Neil is referring to in his lyrics,IMO ! I just find it interesting to give up experiencing Rush's great music live because of one 4 minute song that just expresses the opinion and experiences of one man ! Whether I agree or disagree with Neil's opinion of many subjects is not going to change the way I enjoy the music, it is just going to make me think and consider someone elses viewpoint and maybe even question things that might not make sense ! I respect people who may be offended but find it unfortunate that this affects the way they might look at Neil and the band in the future and keep life long fans such as themselves from experiencing great live performances while we are still fortunate to be able to go see them live !
#42 - Posted 7/25/10 @1:07AM by Mars On The Horizon [contact]
"... songs like Leave That Thing Alone was just so unnecessary not only because it was their second off Counterparts, but also given the fact that there were already 4 instrumentals in the setlist including Neil's and Alex's respective solos. I would've much rather heard something early like Xanadu, Anthem, or anything off GUP. Something like The Pass, Driven, or a VT song would've been cool too."
#37 - I have heard from people who have worked with Rush's live show over recent years that the reason instrumentals are strategically placed in the sets are to give Geddy's voice a 5 or 6 minute break. As for why they chose LTTA this time i dunno - but being a bass player i thoroughly enjoyed it!
#43 - Posted 7/25/10 @1:15AM by necromancer 2112 [contact]
I agree, I think "Leave that thing alone" is a good song, especially if you pick out the bass lines and Alex's solo has alot of emotion in it !
#44 - Posted 7/25/10 @1:16AM by toddnbeth
responding to post#35, "actively bashing" is probably a stronger phrase than I really intended. If you reread my post, I did state at the beginning of the sentence "It seems to me that.." . I was not stating anything as fact, just expressing my feelings. I am referring to pretty much the entire lyrics of BU2B, and some of the lines in Faithless (ie: Fools and Thieves...). There are a number of lines throughout Snakes and Arrows (the opening lines to Far Cry and Some of the lines in Armor and sword), which can be taken as being negative toward religion.
I understand that Neil does not share my faith and respect that. I do not think his intention is to bash his fans, but in reading his books and listening to some of his lyrics, I believe he does, perhaps unintentionally, show a lack of respect for the beliefs of a good number of Rush fans. If it is intentional, that is his prerogative and I'm ok with it although I would find it to be a bit sad on his part.
Rush is still the greatest band in the world and on that I think most of us would agree.
#44-
Think of how unreasonable of an expectation it would be for Neil (or Alex or Geddy for that matter) to respect every single Rush's beliefs of wishes or wants and needs. Seriously now ,think about that for a minute. It's not possible, since there is probably at least one million serious Rush fans out there.
*insert the word "fans" before the word "beliefs" on my fist sentence last post.
#47 - Posted 7/25/10 @1:54AM by RUSHHEADDAVID [contact]
About my posts #28 and #33...
I have not checked in here to RIAB for a week, so I did not see Eds' Open thred for this past Thursday 22nd .
His statement and the comments are all right on the money with what I said... I guess I did not need to say it anyhow? That's what I get for not checking-in for over a week, or looking at past posts.
For those of you that did not get your items yet, the shirt in the photo is most likely what your going to get... Same with the rest of the items I'm guessing.
I don't think it's Ticketmaster's fault, I'm thinking it's LiveNation (Fanfire) fault, even though they are now the same company, they are separate in the way the function.
I did not know the setlist coming in. I have to say
I'm a bit dissapointed. I don't know how much of a
time machine the show really was. I can't see how Presto,
Stick it Out & Leave That Thing make the list. I had a
feeling Spirit would be the opener, but was looking for
Jacobs Ladder and In The Mood! Very un-eventful tonight.
I haven't missed a show in 29 years but have to say that
R30 was the best tour that showcased a time machine so
to speak and still the best tour since.
OK RUSH fans, they did something tonight that is a first for the tour (as far as I know, and I've been to 4 others). They had very aesthetically appealing (um, yeah!) young ladies walk across the stage like beer servers in the video. the FUNNIEST thing ever was that the second time they did it (i think camera eye) alex was in front of his amps and playing a super extended arpeggio part with his eyes closed and missed the whole thing even though they were out there for a minute and walked so close to him i thought he would smell them...lol!!! then the crew on Alex's side of the stage began to catch on that Alex's never even saw them and began laughing their asses off, and i'm sure Alex has heard about it from them!
#51 - Posted 7/25/10 @2:56AM by musicofthespheres [contact]
#44 - I agree w. you in part in paragraph 2 -- unintentionally, he may show a lack of respect for others' beliefs. And i especially agree w. your third paragraph...:)
But in paragraph 1, you mention some songs and one phrase that "can be taken as being negative toward religion", but haven't described WHY or HOW they can be taken that way. Pardon me for singling you out, but that's what is lacking not just in this thread but in previous threads on the topic.
Perhaps this isn't the venue to hash it out line by line, but I wonder if the folks who do perceive his lyrics as anti-religion actually tried to type out their rationale, if they would start to see the gray areas -- hmmm, maybe he means something else...hmmm, what is he really trying to say here...
I know those same lyrics, and I hear the tone in Geddy's voice and I've read Neil's books and listened to his interviews and I grew up Catholic, and I don't perceive the lyrics as anti religion. Philosophical, thought-provoking, and opinionated, yes. But if someone finds strength in their faith, he has stated that CAN be a good kind of Armor.
after 5 shows so far I strongly believe that Alex is lost in the mix, not enough volume off his amps. I went to a boatload of R30 & S&A shows and he sounded incredible, and even better if you were in that 'critical mass' area in front of his amps where I always try to be. I was right in front of those amps all night tonight, front row, and they're not loud enough. I was also 3rd row Alex, side bleachers at one show, 10th row at one, and in Camden mid orchestra and moved around all night because my seat sucked (i even went to the lawn for a couple songs!). Yes, I admit I am biased because I go mostly to see/hear Alex. However, objectively, when you can barely make out the arpeggios he hits in Camera Eys while those big bad chords sustain, well, it just makes me want to bring up the topic. He went from 32 speakers to 6, albeit he may be pushing those 6 to the max compared to jogging along with the 4 HK stacks, but he's not loud enough. how can 3 2X12 cabinets match 4 full stacks at venues like this? It even seemed tonight as if Alex was communicating on more than one occasion to the crew that he couldn't hear them (just my observation, subject to being 100% wrong). i don't know crap about engineering a concert, but i know a thing or two about hearing one, especially RUSH, and Alex is not cutting through at all, period. At every R30 show, for example, he sounded just like on the DVD, which is absolutely stunning. S&A was pretty much the same. Has anyone else made a similar observation?
dang!! i should have filmed Camera Eye and would have Alex missing the girls...lol!! hopefully someone got it, Alex will probably get on youtube himself to see how funny it is!
#54 - Posted 7/25/10 @3:45AM by boneroller [contact]
51 posts and only a handful of actual comments about the show. Who gives a shit if Neil's an atheist? It took you until Faithless and BU2B to figure that out? Relax, for crying out loud, they're a rock band. That's it. And, as was mentioned before, their HIS words and he's speaking for HIMSELF! It's "I don't have faith in faith", not "YOU (or WE) don't have faith..."
Faithless was one of the highlights of the show for me. It was nice to hear MP, but I've heard all those songs (except TCE obviously) a zillion times live so it wasn't really a big deal. (TCE was AMAZING!!!) I always appreciate the surprises at Rush shows a lot more than the standards. I nearly shit my pants when they played "Presto" and "Marathon!" I'd love to see a show someday where they do ALL obscure numbers. Maybe the 'Fear' trilogy? I can dream can't I?
As is always the case with Jones Beach for some reason, the sound was disappointing. Every show I've seen there, with the soul exception of RTB (their first appearance there), there have been sound issues. Things seemed a bit better in the second half but still not great. The band was on, though, as always but not the best I've seen. (this was #41 or 42 for me, I lost count)
Sadly, money is tight this year and this will be my only show. I'm sure they'll record this somewhere and I look forward to the dvd! Hopefully I'll have more cash next summer for the "Clockwork Angels" tour!
#55 - Posted 7/25/10 @4:58AM by boneroller [contact]
Oops. I meant fear quartet.
#56 - Posted 7/25/10 @7:49AM by SuNdOgSfIrEoNtHeHoRiZoN [contact]
#20- you know this blog is for fans of rush not for people who just want to come on here and bash on them because neil writes some lyrics that upset you, well guess what he's not writeing them because he thinks everyones going to like it.He writes things that are relevent to his life and thats it.Why would you come on this blog and waste your time talking crap about them if your a true fan.I dont care what they play what they write or how they do it because at the end of the day there 3 people just like you and me and thats it.There fucking awsome musicians and thats why we love them.go hate somewhere else but not here.There music is inspirational in so many ways i would never waste my time bad mouthing them and as far as there show glitches go, shit happends it makes the show more real and they conquer thru those glitches like no other.Seeing them both days at red rocks then back down to florida for tampa and west palm.Cant wait.Just remember when there gone your gonna wish you wouldnt have talked shit.
#57 - Posted 7/25/10 @7:50AM by SuNdOgSfIrEoNtHeHoRiZoN [contact]
#20: This is my first ever post here; your open and honest post compelled me to sign up and respond. While I greatly respect your decision to walk away from something that seems contrary to your beliefs I, like many others here, thought I'd share a few thoughts about the songs in question.
My father, who was a devout Christian who sang the gospel as a hobby for 30 years, died not long after Snakes and Arrows was released. After learning that he was terminal, the minister from our church came by the house. The first words out of my dad's mouth were from Mark 9:24: "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!" This was very powerful to me, as a man who professed strong faith all his life was willing to express a small measure of doubt when he knew his life was going to end. This was the context in which I first heard "Faithless."
But as I listened to the words in "Faithless" I could not help but notice that the chorus is simply a rephrasing of 1 Corinthians 13:13. Essentially, love trumps faith and hope, and regardless of what was going on in my life, or the end of my dad's life, or whether or not eternity awaited him, my obligation to him and to my family was to love. I think the "temple and marketplace" line is there to remind us that there are many fools even within religion who merely use the impression of religion for their own status, image, etc. and do not grapple with the larger questions that religion can help answer.
As for BU2B, I find that the "loving watchmaker" line is actually a bit ironic. The "watchmaker" is a deist concept, not Christian, and by default not "loving" in any capacity. This line expresses, to me, the difficulty in coming to terms with different religious views all the while knowing we are all going to die. Having lost my dad (and then the next year my father-in-law to suicide!!!) this song merely expresses (to me) the confounding nature of the problem of evil. If God is all powerful, He cannot be all loving. If God is all loving, He cannot be all powerful. My own minister acknowledges this paradox. To recognize this difficulty is not to disregard religion. In fact, a good friend of mine in seminary had to take an entire class on it.
At any rate, my post is merely meant to express how these songs can actually be uplifting or helpful, depending on the context in which they are listened to. Perhaps you will always find them objectionable. Oddly enough, as a Christian I found them to be helpful and even enlightening.
#58 Great post, I agree. I grew up in a family of Southern Baptist and it actually drove me away from Religion. We recently had a son and I have conflicts within myself about how to introduce him to religion. I think I owe it to him to expose him to religion and let him decide for himself. "FREWILL"
#20 It seems to me your guilty of the very thing you accuse Neil of....IMO
Their is tonal change for sure in Alex's new setup. 6 12"
Speakers don't cut it when you have a monster sound like Alex. I think they sound a bit boxy. Although his CEye tone sounds dead on.
He is running a lot more of his sound through front of house and I don't see any mic's so I'm guessing its direct somehow.
I would love to see him go back to HIWATT! pipedream...
#61 - Posted 7/25/10 @9:17AM by sloth7813 [contact]
wow...just wow. incredible show. i was eight rows back on the inside aisle on Alex's side, and he was loving the audience. i was certainly doing my best at 'bromancing' him. my only gripe is that my girlfriend bobbled and lost a shirt Alex threw at the encore. if she hadn't knocked it forward it would have hit her right in the chest!
#50- i was half-expecting Alex to follow the girls off stage, but he was completely oblivious.
wow...so typical for people of "faith" to feel the need to share their personal "hurt" at someone's opinion. Don't like it, so what? Just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't mean you have to agree. Just agree to disagree and move on...don't completely write someone or something off because they don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster. If baffles me how people are so controlled by religion that it infiltrates ever facet of their life like this.
#53 Here's a vid (not mine) of Alex missing the "Moving Pitchers" girls. Starts at about 3:50. You can see how zoned into the music Alex is if you watch the big screen just as they come out.
absolutely incredible show! fantastic weather. i was sitting 3rd row center. i submitted 40 photos this morning to ed. god only knows if i did it correctly. will check later. couldn't view photos as i was uploading, so didn't place captions. if photos don't go through, will try again. i think my iphone said i took over 500 photos last night. the boyz were SO on! alex came to center stage like a billion times. one of my favs for the night was THE CAMERA EYE. can't recall if i've ever seen them do that before. the chicks crossing the stage with the beers was unbelievable also. great stuff.
special kudos to the family of three sitting in front of me in the second row. dad, mom, and young son rockin' out to rush as a family. it was a beautiful sight to see. i tried uploading the photos of the kid totally keeping time with neil. i hope those pictures uploaded. you had to see it. this kid was SO YOUNG, and so cool. totally following pratt's time, as jack black said in beyond the lighted stage... "to the a-t-o-m."
great work mom and dad. hope to see all 3 of you at pnc in jersey (2nd row, can't wait). this kid was the icing on the cake to the show. everyone sitting around him couldn't believe it.
Outstanding show, though J.B's acoustics leave a lot to be desired. The first act set list played better to me than I saw on paper. Alex played really inspired and his solos in several songs were well received by the fans. Geddy seemed a little annoyed about the "moving pitchers" gag with the three women, he even said "That's enough" when it seemed that one of the ladies was playing to the fans too much. All in all, a great night.
#66 - Posted 7/25/10 @11:05AM by snowdog20 [contact]
#58... Thank you.
#67 - Posted 7/25/10 @11:06AM by rush is best f... the rest [contact]
Most of the time I enjoy reading these posts and try not to read the spoilers. Many times I want to post my opinions but wait to see what others will say. With that I got agree with #56 and #58 did an outstanding job, very interesting read.
#68 - Posted 7/25/10 @11:08AM by moedrabowsky [contact]
I don't feel like looking up who said it, but I want to clarify one thing -- you can describe "Faithless" any number of ways, but "subtle" is not one of them.
#69 - Posted 7/25/10 @11:46AM by snowdog20 [contact]
Does anyone know what the banner said that was thrown at Geddy during Faithless? I'm really hoping that strong opposition to the "religion bashing" songs don't bring out the sickos who are capable of doing stupid stuff in the name of what they believe.
Different eyes see different things
Different hearts beat on differnt strings
The sooner that humanity can grasp this concept the better, otherwise we are all screwed.
#70 - Posted 7/25/10 @11:46AM by cagster [contact]
My 2 cents on the faith subject for what it is worth. I actually started listening to Rush years ago as one who was brought up to beleive as a christian. I liked rock music and the only thing most bands play are raunchy, sexual,evil,drug related garbage. Christian rock was pretty lame back then Rush has plenty of great music that I have enjoyed and still do. I don't get offended at their beliefs as they are not mine. At least Rush is straight up and don't try and hide lyrics as many christian rock bands of today so they can sell to christian and secular people. I feel Neils biggest problem is with the prosperity religions and people going overboard. I have seen my share of garbage in all walks of faith and feel this is what really gets to Neil.
Can't wait for August 7.
#71 - Posted 7/25/10 @11:49AM by cagster [contact]
Question non related to the thread for you in the Northwest.
Is it impossible to drive to White River and is the shuttle the best route?
#72 - Posted 7/25/10 @11:54AM by timintey [contact]
Imagine leaving a concert in which you went to see "the greatest piece of music ever written" because you were butthurt over some lyrics you don't agree with.
LOL
#74 - Posted 7/25/10 @12:23PM by mysticbeat [contact]
-58- You expressed so eloquently the same as I feel. And for the record, I do not believe that Neil is an atheist. I think his lyrics are expressions of a very intellectual mind, which I can really appreciate. Maybe that is why I relate to them in a different way than others, but I find them to be related to the many ironies that exist on this earth, and the ever changing human condition. A good example IMO is written in LARGER BOWL.
#75 - Posted 7/25/10 @12:27PM by josh7598 [contact]
I don't understand why people of faith are so intolerant of those who aren't fanatical about it. People always point to the middle east for examples of religious extremists when there are so many fine examples here in our own country.
#58-- Thank you for sharing that! This is the type of discussion that I would hope to see among Rush fans. This is a good way to think of the heady lyrics we're presented with. I am also sorry to hear about the loss of your father!
There's something utterly philosophical about the way that Rush songs are written. They will be interpreted differently person-to-person, as I'd imagine all good writing can be.
I am sure that Neil is not making any sweeping generalizations in his lyric writing when he talks about "fools and thieves" and the like. I see it as a 'one-bad-apple' kind of thing-- Take fans for example. Neil is notorious for not attending meet-and-greets and the like. This isn't because he hates all Rush fans or anything like that, however. He's just afraid of that one psycho guy in a million that's going to follow him back to his tour bus and demand a signature or something like that.
The same frame of thought, I think, is what produces some of his lyrics.
We're not all going to come to the same conclusion about such matters, though, which is another one of those things that makes Rush a lot more intellectually awesome than... er... Nickelback.
-- Anyhow! --
It sounds like this New York show was one of those "Magic" shows, eh? Thanks for the reports!
#64: Little kid rocking out to Rush? This is awesome. He's going to grow up to be the SMARTEST KID EVER! :P I wish I'd been so lucky as to be introduced to the band at such a young age. Surely I'd have taken over the WORLD by now!
#77 - Posted 7/25/10 @12:56PM by rushsister [contact]
Geddy, Alex, and Neil have all led decent lives. They have been loyal and faithful to their family and friends. Aside from the fact that they are great musicians, outstanding showmen, and continue to put out fantastic music; they have earned my respect and admiration. I don't have to believe as they might believe. I am along for the ride and can't wait for Red Rocks (except that would signal the end of my summer)!
#78 - Posted 7/25/10 @1:47PM by ColdFire466 [contact]
Answer for #71 - Posted 7/25/10 @11:49AM by cagster
Question non related to the thread for you in the Northwest.
Is it impossible to drive to White River and is the shuttle the best route?
When I saw them at WhiteRiver in 2007. We drove in from Seattle. If you drive YOU MUST head in very very early. A RUSH tribute band is playing at the Muckleshoot casino before the show this year. If you make it that far by 4 or 5pm at the latest then you should be fine as far as getting in to the venue on time. If you get there any later than 5 then you will be dealing with a single lane entry road.
Getting out is the major problem. The free parking at WhiteRiver is staffed by stoned out of their wits teenagers. There is ZERO organization! Last tour we sat in the parking lot waiting for 3.5 hours to get out! There is no point in rushing to your car before the end of the encore because cars are let out at that point.
If you do not have premium parking then the shuttle is the only way to go.
#79 - Posted 7/25/10 @1:49PM by Hill
Throughout this thread, I have heard several "Rush fans" say how they were disappointed in their set list, and the night was just okay.
How many more tours do you think Rush are going to do? Geeeze, appreciate them while they are still around! They aren't far from retiring!
#80 - Posted 7/25/10 @2:01PM by OpenSecret [contact]
I also fail to understand how so called fans are complaining about the setlist, sound quality and so on. It seems the vast majority are perfectly happy, simply thrilled that Rush are still touring, still writing great new songs and still putting on top quality shows. I saw Muse earlier this year - lauded by many as the best live band of the present day and Rush made them seem like kids in comparison. As for the poor delicate folks who leave half way through a show because they play Faithless or BU2B - sorry but that is plain absurd. Perfect examples of religious intolerance. Neil has an opinion and expresses it eloquently. If he were writing songs ignorantly opposing religious faith and using sixth grade language to do it, I might be able to understand why people get so upset but he does not. Anyone daft enough to not get Neil and his points of view after all this time is just kinda silly. Granted, if I was not already free of religious zeal maybe I would feel differently, but fortunately that is not the case. Anyway - as a long, long time Rush fan - I am delighted by their performances this tour, happy with the setlist and looking forward to 2011 - surely a great year to be a fan.
#81 - Posted 7/25/10 @2:20PM by rush is best f... the rest [contact]
Right on #80. Allow #20's post has made for some good reading in here.
#82 - Posted 7/25/10 @2:23PM by rush is best f... the rest [contact]
I wonder now if #20 went to the trouble of writing that because they were looking for advice or trying to convert people?
#83 - Posted 7/25/10 @2:32PM by Taurus Pedal Boy [contact]
Saw the show at Jone's Beach last night. AWESOME! One of the best I've seen, and I've seen every tour since and including Signals.
If somebody left early because of BU2B or FAITHLESS, I'm glad they left. Ridiculous.
#84 - Posted 7/25/10 @2:36PM by katskahnne [contact]
#58 - Wow. I was going to post my $0.02 on the matter but you pretty much nailed what I was going to say, and probably way better than I'd have said it. Kudos.
#50 - LOL! When he's on Planet Lerxst, there ain't no pulling him back down until he's dang good and ready!! :-D
18 days...this is gonna be like 18 seconds at the end of a basketball game - you know what I'm saying, intentional fouls, free throws, time-outs...18 seconds can take 45 minutes! That's how it's feeling...argh...
#85 - Posted 7/25/10 @2:39PM by katskahnne [contact]
P.S. Just heard from my friend whose daughter I'm babysitting...she's getting here tomorrow afternoon and we're gonna have a "screening" of the Rush doc so she can see it!! :-) I'm so looking forward to showing it to a good friend for the first time!
#86 - Posted 7/25/10 @2:51PM by Lynn-2112 [contact]
My show is next. They will all be rested up and the blister healed.
Very interesting reading everyone. #58 #80.
I am LDS and love Rush. It does not even bother me that Neil called me a So-Called Elder in his August 2009 "A Little Yellow Cabin on Yellowstone Lake" Essay. I love Ghost of a Chance. I believe in angles and God. But I think of how the song conveys that love and finding someone is even stronger. And it has my favorite Alex solo.
In high school I painted a beautiful 3' by 4' Star Man.
After I served an LDS mission in Los Angeles, I came home and ripped it up. One of the dumbest things I ever did.
I love all my friends and respect their beliefs or even if they don't believe.
Rush is so awesome and I can't wait to see them in 11 days.
#87 - Posted 7/25/10 @2:52PM by Lynn-2112 [contact]
I agree with ColdFire466...take the shuttle. Parking is a nightmare and getting out after the show could take 1-3 hours.
When we saw Rush in 2007 at WRA we were on a bus 5 minutes after the show and back to Auburn in 25 minutes.
#89 - Posted 7/25/10 @5:44PM by Tricked by Circumstances [contact]
Hi everyone...just a comment about the BU2B and Faithless thing. Those who see these songs as rants against religion have missed the point entirely and if you have read the lyrics then you surely don't understand them. Neil is speaking about his own experience and what he feels about it and how he has found flaws with these experiences.
He does not bash religion and in fact has had some very kind things to say about my religion and the people who live it (Latter-day Saint or Mormon if you don't know the formal name) in some of his writings, rather I think he is saying that he doesn't understand the pain he sees in the world and surely doesn't understand how or why people claiming to be believers or religious can act as they do in the name of God. He says clearly that
"I don't have faith in faith
I don't believe in belief
You can call me faithless
I still cling to hope
And I believe in love
And that's faith enough for me"
Clearly FAITH means organized religion and BELIEF speaks to our belief in that organization. He's not attacking anyone nor is he dispariging what they believe he is merely making an observation on the whole process. He clings to hope and he believes in love what is more faithful than that? Give me a break folks he is searching and the answers yet elude him...he has faith enough for now and the search goes on. His mind is not closed just skeptical.
The same goes for BU2B...just look at the anagram itself...speaks volumes...Be YOU to BE!!! How wonderful...find your way question what you're told find the truth. He is again questioning the nature of the universe and the unfairness he sees. For myself I see it in a different way and I don't have those questions I understand what I see differently, but I am surely not offended by what he is saying nor will I stop listening to Rush after 35 years because of an observation I don't agree with...makes no sense. I think that we should not take offence where no offence was meant.
Well, enough then...good songs great sentiments...they make you think and they have depth...that's what I care about and the rest is pointless...let it ROCK!!!
Salt Lake City show in about 2 weeks...I'll be there...endlessly rocking with my 17 year old son...second tour for him...untold number for me...I'm ready!
#86 & #89, thanks for your comments. I too am LDS and my initial reaction to Faithless and BU2B was very negative...but I have changed my mind after further pondering. Understandibly, Neil has had experiences that I hope I, nor anyone else has to experience as a husband or father. That said, my disagreement is tempered...his feelings, not mine.
I love the music of Rush. I love music in general...music connects me to people, places and experiences like no other vehicle. In a snap, a song takes me back in time.
I'm on the mends from some pretty serious radiation and chemo for a cancer that I had never heard of before...squamous cell carcinoma. As my poster name suggests, I am a former powerlifter and have been in very good physical condition my entire life. At 48 years of age with four children ten years of age and younger, cancer has changed my perspective on many things. The experiences that my family and I have had have strengthened our faith and belief.
I have a long wait until Sept. 25th when my sweet wife will join me at Cynthia Woods for her first Rush show...but I know it will be well worth it, she will be blown away.
Rush on.
#91 - Posted 7/25/10 @6:50PM by patrush
#62, #75 - What you accuse Christians of annoying you, the atheists are just as guilty of. The problem with modern atheists is they make a living out of bashing anything religious, act bitter when the word Christianity is mentioned, and look down on religious folks as being dumb. Neil's lyrics certainly have similar overtones. That's why #20 isn't digging it. Just look at Richard Dawkins for example. Although he is no expert on religion by anyone's standards (just read a few pages of his piece of crap/rant god delusion and you'll see what I mean - nothing's cohesive except you know it's an angry rant), the guy's credibility hinges on him being an evolutionary biologist at Oxford, but he doesn't even run a lab or do experiments. How good is that for credibility? (If you were scientist, you would surely know these types of "bum" scientists who are good at "politics", collect their paychecks, but get nothing done in the way of research or mentoring students.) He's just a loud talker, little doer. He isn't any smarter than your average "believer" scientist who works his ass off.
That being said, I know plenty of people who are religious, including family members. They certainly aren't anywhere close to being dumb or "fools in the temple who do what they're told". After all, I remember from growing up as a kid learning religion in school that somewhere in the bible (NT) it says "Test all things" (as opposed to "believe what you're told") - doesn't look like Dawkins or Neil Peart have ever read anything from that book. Especially in 2010, anyone religious has got to be constantly watching out for that, as they always get accused by atheists and secular liberals of being dumb, gullible and annoying.
Anyways, the songs Freewill, Ghost of a chance, BU2B really sound great. I have no problem listening to them. But Faithless, I think is a weak song. That's the deeper problem. Dumb lyrics, weak music. It's a bit like "Speed of love", in my opinion. It's a weakling and doesn't fit well in the setlist. It shouldn't have made the cut. Neither should Presto, Time Stand Still, or Leave That Thing Alone.
Just my opinion.
#92 - Posted 7/25/10 @7:17PM by skinsfan [contact]
I'm pretty sure the sign thrown at Geddy was a Holland Loves Rush sign. I saw it before the show, with guys taking pics with it.
I thought the show was absolutely inspired!! I could make some small disagreements with the set list, but they played the hell out of it!!
#91-
I disagree Faithless and Speed of love are dumb songs with dumb lyrics. Just my opinion ,too.
I am actually surprised there are so many ,if even any Rush fans that are religious. I never would have expected it. I mean, if the lyrics or messages in them contradict how you feel and if it bothers you so much, find another band. Simple as that!
#20- you sure opened a big can of worms, buddy!
And ...this is exactly one of the things that pushed me away from religion years ago. The disagreements, anger, finger pointing, judging, war, etc etc that it causes all over the world!! That very statement will offend people I am sure!!
Time for a new thread, I think.
Religion has caused a lot of human suffering. Wars, Persecution ect..
#96 - Posted 7/25/10 @8:30PM by Time Traveller [contact]
Sorry, I can't let that go unreplied.
Let's not forget the suffering and death Atheism has caused: the millions who died under Soviet Socialism and its satellites, the well-known brutality of the soul-less Nazi empire, and don't forget the tens of millions of people who have died under Mao-tse-tungs purges. Nothing even comes close to these.
Faith - or lack thereof - has INDEED caused a lot of death.
So has land, food, tulips, guano (look it up), oil, gold, water, and straight up personality disputes. WHO CARES.
I like that people can express themselves on this board.
But none of you, on either side of the fence, are going to change my mind or anyone else's. "The ones we wish would hear us / have heard it all before."
And the same goes for me.
#99 - Posted 7/25/10 @8:53PM by Red Comet [contact]
I'll jump on the "faithless doesn't sound good live" bandwagon, I still like the song but it doesn't sound good live.
What I have a problem with is anyone who isn't religious or criticize it is labeled an atheist. Do people not know what atheism is??? Atheist BELIEVE there is no god, and then theres people who BELIEVE there is a god. Atheism is a religion, they're drinking the same koolade just a different flavor. People can be so hostile to people who believe and people who don't. Living here in one of the most religious states and city (Tulsa, OK - there are more churches per square mile in Tulsa than anywhere in the US), it's quite easy to coexist with people of faith, everyone I know is religious except for one and I don't ridicule them I respect their decision and thats pretty much it.
#100 - Posted 7/25/10 @9:08PM by hitmewithmusic [contact]
I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose Freewill.
#96- Ridiculous!! Socialism kills people? And what's that have to do with this ,anyway? It wasn't socialism itself that killed people in the Soviet union (Stalin). It was brutal dictatorship. And the Nazis?? Another brutal dictator and just plain wacko nutjob (Hitler). Add up all of the wars that have been fought on this earth in recorded history ,where religions were the main impetus. Add up the deaths. It would be a very very large number. It divides people. It causes wars. It causes the kinds of disputes like in this blog (which blows me away, since it's a Rush site).
#99
I dont see how Atheism would be a religion, at all.
#102 - Posted 7/25/10 @9:23PM by Red Comet [contact]
#100 Rush!!! That will always be the line that best describes me
#101 Atheism has the same arrogance as religions to claim they know what happens when we die or if there is or isn't an afterlife. They are phenotypically different but their skeleton is essentially the same.
#103 - Posted 7/25/10 @9:31PM by holeinone53575
Neil would dig all the discussion about his lyrics. He reads these message boards. This discussion is healthy. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The setlist could improve. Some tunes that have been played on every tour need to be dropped. Tom Sawyer.
#96: "By defending myself against the Jew I am doing the work of the Lord" - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, page 66. While the Nazis were absolutely bonkers and evil, they were not necessarily atheistic. In fact, many Nazis loathed the official atheism of the communists.
#93: Interesting point about Rush fans being religious. I referred to myself in a previous post as a Christian, and I do consider myself that. But I don't consider myself religious. I don't take the Bible literally, in most cases, but I do take it seriously. I get the impression Neil is similar in the sense that he doesn't take religious dogma seriously at all, but he obviously ponders the big questions often. "I can't help thinking big..."
#106 - Posted 7/25/10 @10:12PM by Red Comet [contact]
Has anyone pointed out yet that the new songs are intended to be part of a larger story? Didn't Neil write that in one of his online entries? If that's the case, I'd say let's wait until the full album comes out. I mean, it's called Clockwork ANGELS for some reason.
Apparently the phrase "clockwork orange" refers to something that appears to be one thing, but is something else on the inside. It could also refer to a mechanically responsive man ("clockwork" and "orang" - Malaysian for "man" as in "orangutan.")
I'm wondering if Neil's theme for the album will be a play on that idea, instead of clockwork humans, clockwork angels. Mechanically responsive angels. And perhaps those angels are merely what we want them to be.
I shouldn't even submit this nutty post, but I think I will anyway.
#107: Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm an academic in the general field. I wouldn't use the term "expert" (don't like it) but I suppose that could be a relative term.
#110 - Posted 7/25/10 @10:27PM by Red Comet [contact]
#108 Yeah I saw that, in a lot of the interviews the words "concept" "story" pop out quite a bit when, especially Neil, talk about the upcoming album.
Don't know how the conversation turned to the last part. Honestly, I don't have the patience or interest to read through all these posts. Faith is a personal matter, and it's pointless to try and argue which side is right. Select the set of beliefs, or lack of, that suit you best. Don't worry about being on the "winning side." If you agree with Neil - awesome, if you disagree with Neil and still like the band - cool, if you disagree with Neil but decided to leave the concert - great. But ask yourself if you really believe what you're saying if you have to convince others and win their approval.
There will always be people that we don't see eye to eye with. However, the generalizations made in this thread about Christians and atheists are absurd. Let's focus our attention back RUSH please.
Actually, #107, I HAVE done a lot of study about these matters. Hope you don't break any bones laughing.
I actually want to talk about the "Freewill" quote for a moment. The idea of predestination is largely the product of Calvinism in Christianity. Most other religions, especially those Eastern in nature, ABSOLUTELY assume that humans have freedom; it's just that the exercise of freedom creates causes and effects that can play out over multiple lifetimes/dimensions. I take "Freewill" to be less about Religion As A Whole than about the component that implies we are powerless over our destinies.
#113 - Posted 7/25/10 @10:32PM by Red Comet [contact]
#112 That last sentence is the winner
#114 - Posted 7/25/10 @10:55PM by Lynn-2112 [contact]
Rush is AWESOME.
In a democracy, opinions that upset everyone are sometimes exactly what we need. We should be teaching our children the scientific method and the Bill of Rights. [Carl Sagan & Ann Druyan]
#112..wow...mucho impressivo. You can say what you want ,about the song "Freewill", but unless I hear or see or read Neil himself say that was what HE meant in the lyrics, that's still your interpretation, no matter how much you "know" about the history of religion or any subject. Like #109 said (and I dont think he got my sarcasm)...the word "expert" can be a relative word. None of this is cut and dried. It's not 2+2=4 kind of stuff.
You know how many people out there who don't know squat about religion....actually believe people are predestined or believe in "fate"??? Or the amount of times I have heard people spout off "everything happens for a reason" or phrases like that? Most of those people haven't studied religion.
#117 - Posted 7/25/10 @11:31PM by XelNaga [contact]
New thread please.
Anywhos, great show, sorry I only got standing, last i check upper deck was available, but filled up in about 6 hrs. But had a blast, hope to see some RIAB peeps in Homdel, NJ
#118 - Posted 7/25/10 @11:33PM by scottw [contact]
Only took till reply #96 for Godwin's Law to make an appearance.
#119 - Posted 7/25/10 @11:51PM by Red Comet [contact]
#117 nice to hear the show was great! sept 21 is so far away, sad face
#120 - Posted 7/26/10 @12:05AM by Hill
Uggh....Is anyone here enjoying this thread less than I am?
#121 - Posted 7/26/10 @12:17AM by bravado34 [contact]
Just wow on the religous tone, angle, implication, meaning was the reason for leaving ths show, midset at that. Can someone in a nutshell outline what was meant?
I'm too tired right now to attempt to take all of those messages in. With that said; I do know one thing, all of a sudden my comment about being over Donna is a distant memory...
Jones Beach staff was OK as far as I know, they weren't going out of their way up by the stage to ruin people's nights. i've heard plenty of people say it sucked there, but maybe things changed or I was just not near any jerks (except myself, of course!). I saw one guy tell someone to stop shooting video and only take pictures. that is so shitty, everyone knows that after every show 100 people are going to have vids posted, and many people in from up close. I got plenty, and saw others doing the same, so it kinda sucks to be the guy who got shut down and then had to worry about being booted for starting again. sometimes i think of just leaving the camera home, i am fully aware that it would be so cool to not have that 'burden' of wanting to have the digital souveniers, and it seems Alex would agree because he seems tired of it all (although sometimes he poses for people so who knows?). However, with the prices of technology allowing everyday people to do such wonderful things, well, it's just too tempting. I like to get 3 or 4 good pics from each show (which requires shooting about 80). As far as video, I am lucky to go to many shows, therefore I can strategically plan on getting 2 or 3 songs each show and then having a lot and also being able to enjoy the shows more. ho-hum! seems it would be better if i were born 100 years ago, or maybe 100 years from now when we have multi-angle cameras in the rims of our hats and they take perfect video anytime we want effortlessly...lol!!! did i just write a bunch if bla bla bla again??
#123 - Posted 7/26/10 @12:23AM by niz2112 [contact]
Went to the show at Jones Beach and it was a real great night! Hot as anything that day but at least it was more tolerable there by the ocean, but wish it was a little cooler! I think that Jones Beach is a great venue for concerts and it was really easy getting in and out of there. Bring food or buy in the place in the parking lot if you need to, but inside the prices are crazy and no alcohol served. But they would charge a least $15 a drink if they did!
I was really glad that they did "Marathon" in the first set this is one they didn't do in long time and is a great song. The also did a few others there that are ones that they did not do before or in a long time that are not as well known like; Presto, Stick It Out and Faithless in the middle of the first set so if you aren't a real dedicated fan the middle of the first set may seem a bit slow. BU2B a new song in the first set sounded great and was very heavy as was Caravan which was in the second set!
The second set was awesome! The opened with doing the whole Moving Pictures album! They included for the first time in many years "Closer To The Heart". The encore was as good as it gets with "La Villa Strangiato" and "Working Man".
The sound was good, but I think the Bass was a little to heavy to the guitars. But overall another great show by a great band!
In terms of all the discussion on Neil's religious views expressed in his lyrics, the bottom line is he is expressing his beliefs and is not imposing these views on you. I do like a lot of his lyrics, although I don't necessary like all of them for different reasons, but he definitely always had a very unique and thoughtful approach to his lyrics.
Anyway no one really knows what happens when we pass away and the best approach is to live a good life by being good to each other and that's basically what Neil is saying in "Faithless"! I chose to believe that there is a God, but to me that makes live more meaningful, but there are a lot of problems with the way some practice religion. Many use religion to divide themselves from those without their beliefs and even in some cases there is violence to those who practice a different faith or even those with the same faith that are different from themselves. There is also a lot of hypocrisy on what religion supposed to stand for and how many who claim to be righteous actually live their lives.
if anyone finds a good vid of Tom Sawyer where it shows ALEX during his break when he goof off PLEASE send me a personal message because during that time I had pink letters held up in the front row spelling out his name (first name...lol!!) and he turned into a comedian (imagine that!)! He lowered his brow and was was pointing out the letters and naking facial expressions pretending as if he could not read!! Thanks Alex, a nod would have sufficed and made our night, but what you did really made it worth the trip (again..lol). plz msg me, don't just post it because after 4 shows in a row it's time to go back to work and I only sporadically look at the blogs :-)
#126 - Posted 7/26/10 @12:35AM by JesseZ [contact]
RE: #20, #101 et al...
I'm a Christian and am not offended by Neil's lyrics. I appreciate and respect his POV and use it to re-examine/re-inforce my own beliefs and views. He's brilliant but I don't always agree with him. But, hey who wants to live in an echo chamber?
I find BU2B's lyrics to be painfully shallow, even adolescent in its approach to christian theology. Still, I really dig the music and that's enough for me.
#101 : The tired old 'religion causes wars' argument. Misguided ideologies have racked up more bodies than all religious wars put together and then some. Please look into National Socialism, Pol Pot, Stalinist Russia, modern-day Burma/Myanmar, Bulgaria, Angola, North Korea and Mozambique for a primer.
Added bonus rant: The US is an election cycle behind. Europe, in many corners, is doing its best to shed socialism (Holland, Germany, France, Czech, Hungary, Poland). England is working towards de-centralizing its national healthcare system. Why is this happening if socialism was such a worthwhile endeavour?
#127 - Posted 7/26/10 @12:47AM by patrush
#94 - "And ...this is exactly one of the things that pushed me away from religion years ago. " How could I have guessed that you were a secular liberal who got tired of religion? (Some 20 threads ago you admitted to being a liberal.)
Liberals always blame religion for all the wars. Quite typical.
When they completely disregard the works of atheist leaders, which is of far greater proportions.
They will answer that Hitler was Catholic!!!
#128 - Posted 7/26/10 @12:56AM by choose freewill [contact]
Ain't it frustrating being an open minded person in a world full of closed minded people?
#127- Oh and, you are wayyyyyyyyy too "political" for me, buddy...and not in an intellectual, well informed way either. Religion and politics don't mix, as far as I am concerned. You like to pigeonhole people as "liberal" ,etc. It's kinda nutty, I think..Patrush.
#131 - Posted 7/26/10 @1:34AM by RUSHHEADDAVID [contact]
And the men who hold high places
Must be the ones to start
To mould a new reality
Closer to the Heart
The Blacksmith and the Artist
Reflect it in their art
Forge their creativity
Closer to the Heart
Philosophers and Ploughmen
Each must know his part
To sow a new mentality
Closer to the Heart
You can be the Captain
I will draw the Chart
Sailing into destiny
Closer to the Heart
RUSH ON !!!
#132 - Posted 7/26/10 @1:37AM by M next 2 I next 2 K next 2 E [contact]
FYI - Rush is just a band...they are not anything otherwise. Its just entertainment (Ged's mom "oh so your an entertainer!...now I get it"). if you think of it with that in mind alot of this religious stigmata would not be a problem. Its not preaching..its just a point of view...and all of Rush's music is just that. Unless you personally know these guys...just enjoy it like a book, or a movie, or a piece of food, or... some kind of fabric thing. If you don't like it "spit it out" and move on. And I was brought up to be an openen-minded Christian by the way. Now lets ROCK!!!!
#133 - Posted 7/26/10 @1:40AM by M next 2 I next 2 K next 2 E [contact]
PS - I was trying to avoid getting involved in all of this BS but....Its stupid!!! Okay there i said it
#134 - Posted 7/26/10 @1:43AM by RUSHHEADDAVID [contact]
Mike #132... Well stated...
Dito on your #133 as well...
RUSH ON !!!
#135 - Posted 7/26/10 @2:05AM by M next 2 I next 2 K next 2 E [contact]
Hey #134 David....it's 1am here in Chicago, I have to get up for work at 7am. I think I have time for some 'Signals' before I call it a night. Here's to 'the summer of RUSH!!'
May there be many more...Cheers!!
#136 - Posted 7/26/10 @3:17AM by ghost__rider [contact]
We can walk our road together
If our goals are all the same
We can run alone and free
If we pursue a different aim
Let the truth of love be lighted
Let the love of truth shine clear
Sensibility
Armed with sense and liberty
With the Heart and Mind united
In a single perfect sphere
#137 - Posted 7/26/10 @3:23AM by ghost__rider [contact]
*or*
Rent a nice French bomb to poof them out of existence....
#138 - Posted 7/26/10 @3:54AM by QweziRider [contact]
#93 - "I am actually surprised there are so many ,if even any Rush fans that are religious."
Well, for me, in a word, the music. It's always been about the music for me. The textures, the craftsmanship, the sonic art. I've never given a rats hind end about any band's lyrics, honestly. To me, lyrics are just a vehicle for the singer's voice (in this case, Geddy). But that's just me and my twisted likes. It could all be instrumental and just creating textures with the voice and I'd be just as happy.
#139 - Posted 7/26/10 @7:46AM by dtoelectric [contact]
I hope the new album is not laced with all these types of songs dealing with faith Neils beliefs. It's getting pretty old now for me since S&A . I hope Neil can get through this phase of his life before the band retires and actually writes a few songs not as dark as they have been lately. Understandably with all the bad stuff that happened in his life in the past he may be beyond some feel good lyrics at this point. I guess a modern day song like Red Barchetta is out of the question at this point. Seems like life is so serious in his recent lyrics i just want to have some fun listening but maybe faithless and other songs in that vain are what modern day Rush fans want to hear.
#140 - Posted 7/26/10 @8:33AM by jammaster1 [contact]
I rarely post but I feel the need to put in my 2 cents on this religious thread.
First of all, I find it amazing that anyone could follow Rush for any length of time and suddenly be offended by their views on religion.
My interpretation of Faithless is that Neil would rather rely on himself, to make his own decisions then have to follow a doctrine that might contradict his own instinct. Which, IMO is great advice.
Having read the bible cover to cover...twice, I continually find it amazing the level of intolerence in so many so called Christians. Isn't that one of the basic teachings of Chrisitanity? You don't have to live by the lyrics of a song in order to enjoy it. Should all non-smokers denouce the song, Smokin in the boys room? The 'My God's bigger than your God' attitude is what causes so much termoil in the world. If we'd all just lighten up a bit, we'd realize most things that get people so stirred up, really aren't that big of a deal at the end of the day.
I also think that #20 missed a real teaching moment with his son. What better way to teach a yound mind to be able to deal with things you don't necessarily subscribe to. Instead you taught him that if you don't agree with something, you just turn your back on it instead of taking the time to make up your own mind.
To get back your 'faith' in Rush, give Totem Pole a spin. The lyrics are spot on in that there is no one religion that gets it completety right. Instead, draw upon all the ideas from all beliefs that work for you as an individual and then go forth and rock!!
#139-
Actually, I feel the same. Not because I've been "offended" but Neil's lyrics when they are dealing with faith or religion, so much as I am just feeling kind of tired of that being a "theme" for his lyrics. Honestly, I have to say I haven't really enjoyed his lyrics as much the last few albums. Not as much as in past albums, anyway. Again, that's a subjective thing though, because there's probably some people who think his best lyrics have been on the last few albums. I'm not saying I think they are "bad" lyrics either, I'm just saying personally , I haven't really liked the direction his lyrics have gone the last few albums, or their music for that matter. For me, the height of Rush's greatness was Permanent Waves through to Roll the bones. I love stuff from before and after thos albums ,but I think their best work was in those years ,including keyboards and synths, even if Alex said "those aren't really instruments!" in the Rush documentary. That got under my skin, because 1. They were real instruments. 2. That was insulting to Geddy, because he played those instruments. 3. I believe ,like Geddy said "you could say maybe those were our best albums" when they were discussing the use of keyboards in Rush's music. I do think those were Rush's best albums (Permanent waves- Roll the bones).
Anyway, I started off talking about Neil's "faith and religion" themes for lyrics and I went off on another tangent about Rush's music. Oops.
#20-If BU2B and Faithless chased you from being a Rush fan I have one question for you... How did you make it past the pentagram on 2112 and ATWAS? I will never understand how so called christians can be so judge mental. The Pass must have also slipped under your Religionadar too... >CHRIST, What Have You Done?!< Taking the "Lord's" name in vain?! Tisk, tisk....
#144 - Posted 7/26/10 @10:49AM by dylanbrooks
#142 - agree on all counts.
#145 - Posted 7/26/10 @10:57AM by drmike [contact]
Actually, the pentagram was a Christian symbol. Anti-Christians "perverted" its meaning by inverting it.
#146 - Posted 7/26/10 @11:26AM by Svipal [contact]
@ #91
Re: Faithless
dumb lyrics?
"but I still cling to hope.
And I believe in love
and that's faith enough for me."
LOL - I can see how those things are oh so terrible.
I'm sure Neil would love it if you told him his recent lyrics were dumb.
#147 - Posted 7/26/10 @11:28AM by Svipal [contact]
go check your history #145
it was used long before christianity.
#148 - Posted 7/26/10 @11:28AM by ct_dave [contact]
The Jones Beach show was amazing! It's great to see the boys playing so well and enthusiastically. I've been to every tour since Moving Pictures and believe this was the best gig yet. Nice to see that the venue was completely sold out.
The videos had us rolling with laughter -- who would have thought Geddy and Alex could pull off the rolls so well? Also enjoyed the way the band altered the tempo on a couple of the song intros, anyone know if they're filming the tour for video release?
#149 - Posted 7/26/10 @11:37AM by Svipal [contact]
This thread has been littered with personal agendas.
#150 - Posted 7/26/10 @11:41AM by Hardnecker [contact]
This just in. BU2B is a religious based song and since Clockwork Angels is supposed to be a concept record it is safe to think that the concept is......well....you know. I'm contemplating a law suit. I thought the next record was supposed to be about steroids in baseball. That's what Geddy told me.
#151 - Posted 7/26/10 @12:01PM by musicofthespheres [contact]
bdc -- thanks for your first RIAB posts. including the nutty one...:) all high quality, whether one agrees w. them or not, and not trying to rile anyone up.
good thread for the most part, imo.
#152 - Posted 7/26/10 @12:14PM by Narpetof2 [contact]
Great concert, great energy, especially during "The Camera Eye" obviously, during the New York section. Was it me, or did Geddy genuinely get irritated when one of the pitcher girls refused to leave the stage, and kept mugging for the crowd? I felt sorry for him. We are off to Ged's side of the stage in orchestra, and saw the girls walk away near the end of the show, looking all self-satisfied.
Oh, and Dave got to shake Ray Danniels' hand!! Cool.
#154 - Posted 7/26/10 @2:36PM by long awaited friend [contact]
RE:#20..and all that has followed.
I respect #20's choice to leave the concert, however as a Christian myself that wouldn't be my choice.
It doesn't matter what someone else says or sings, my faith
will not be weaken or changed.
When I go to a rock concert I don't expect to agree with
everything I hear. I go for the music, the atmoshere and to see my favorite musicians.
Its not like going to a church that believes something different than you.
As I have stated on here before, I love BU2B...when I hear it I hear a discription of the word "faith" Yes, faith is believing something "blindly". Many people don't understand that. I believe in things that don't make sense or can't be reasoned out, but I choose to believe.
Neil is a very intelligent guy and very well read, therefore its even harder for him to understand or except anything he can't reason out. It only makes sense that something that has impacted his life so much, in the form of tragedy, that he wants to write about it and how he struggles to understand.
He will probably continue to stay on that theme as long as he can't figure it out.
For me that makes no difference, I will continue to be a fan of RUSH and I will continue to have friends who don't believe the same as I.....we are all equal.
#155 - Posted 7/26/10 @3:21PM by 8trackradio [contact]
I knew a guy who had a friend who was a rush fan and christian...He would get so mad at Neil's lyrics that he felt he had to rewrite them himself..I wish I had the lyrics he rewrote but I only ever read them over my firiends house once and that was in the early 90's..but I do remember that "Presto" became "Preacho" and "Roll the Bones" became "Roll the Sermons" some funny stuff be he wasnt trying to be funny... He thought Neil was always preaching through his lyrics and it upset him sooooo...but every new cd he was there and bought it??? Never understood...
#154-
You have a healthy, good attitude. I am not religious or practice any faith, but can respect that others do. Anyway, good post!
See, the thing is..(and the song 'faithless' touches on this)...the guys in Rush are GOOD PEOPLE, whether they practice any faith or religion or not. I think people like the person who wrote post #154 can see that, even though they practice a faith.
Fascinating thread. I wonder who would leave a Rush show if they played The Necromancer. It does clearly refer to sorcery. Or 2112, which is the individual against society - compared to the Faithless lyric "I've got my own moral compass to steer by." Or Hemispheres, which clearly states "the gods of Love and Reason sought alone to rule the fate of man" without any mention of a supreme divine being. Or Which Hunt, which is clearly subversive ("Calm in their right, confident their ways are best").
I just read through the lyrics for BU2B and Faithless again - BU2B seems to me to be directed at those who blindly follow, without question (like the mob in Witch Hunt). "The loving Watchmaker loves us all to death" - well, isn't that a basic idea behind most religions? God loves you, but also decides when it is time for you to die. What if the lyric were "UNTIL death"? In Faithless Neil never states he is Faithless, it says "You can call me Faithless." The lyrics about the stone resisting the spring tide and the cliffs resisting the ocean are pretty cool - the cliffs will be eroded by the ocean over time.
Art should inspire and move you - sometimes that emotion may be joy, sometimes anger. I'd personally rather have lyrics that make me think and question.
#159 - Posted 7/26/10 @6:28PM by AlexGedNeil [contact]
To all you christians out there who don't like Rush's lyrics, all I can say is GOOD! See you later and don't slam the door on your way out. Read further for proof of why I don't like organized religion.
During the 80's my religious Jr. High band instructor showed our class a video about all these bands that were supposedly satanic. One of them was Rush. They said that the Pentagram was proof that Rush were satanic. I was completely shocked....how could they say this about Rush? They just don't understand....Living in a small town, this was not my only experience with this crap growing up.
I was also mormon for 3 months as a teenager. I had a crush on a girl, and I got sucked into the LDS church during that time because of it. I went to a huge gathering of LDS kids at a camp somewhere in Washington State. I spoke in front of thousands of kids saying things like how this was the "True Church of Jesus". But then, they got some of us together and started talking about rock music. They said that Rush were a group associated with the devil because of the pentagram, and that the naked guy was a guy who had accepted satan.
After that experience and telling the adults in that group they were wrong (they didn't believe me) I quit the church as they did not truly understand what that album or Rush was about. Back then there was no explanation from the band about what 2112 was, only speculation, but I understood what the lyrics meant.
I will chose a path that's clear, I will choose FREEWILL
#161 - Posted 7/26/10 @6:47PM by dgrant99 [contact]
Bottom line, Jones Beach show was awesome as usual... based upon earlier comments, it looks like the boys hit their stride just before the break. Those of you that were there, it would have been nice to hear your opinions on it, however this thread was hijacked early on into a debate on Rush vs Religion. So thanks for that.
My one negative experience was the early sales, I could have gotten much better seats if I simply logged on and bought one from the venue.
#157 KGMD-MONEY POST! You nailed it and absolutely well put. Your Faithless explanation is the same for BU2B as well. I'm lovin the fact the Rush stories haven't ended! Can't wait to see and hear Clockwork Angels as a finished product.
#163 - Posted 7/27/10 @10:16PM by XelNaga [contact]
Anyway to derail this, any RIAB wanna meet up before the Sept 3rd show for some brews/talegating?
#164 - Posted 7/28/10 @2:18PM by D-Slam
I don't have time to read the entire thread (so I apologize if this point has been made already), but I wanted to respond to #20:
You've been listening to Free Will for 30 years and only NOW are you noticing Neil's disdain for religion???
Personally, I considered Faithless-BU2B-FreeWill to be an "atheist trifecta", and as an atheist I was perfectly happy with it.
#165 - Posted 7/28/10 @3:03PM by SnakesandArrows [contact]
Came up from Charleston SC to see the show, since its been a tradition to see them at that venue since 97. Spectacular as always! There was a beautiful full moon to my left. The first set was great and I was excited to hear BU2B live. Sadly, people still get up during the new songs to use the bathrooms, but to each thier own I guess. Faithless sounded awesome! The 2nd set was astonishing and I felt the collective energy of the venue go into high gear. The effects and video backdrops were all amazing, using humor and mind blowing effects and pyrotechnics. I also loved the beautiful bar maids on stage(a first for Rush, I think). One thing missing from the effects was the laser lights, but they didnt play any of the songs they usually couple with that effect. I hope they bring them back on the next tour. We all had a blast! Well, good luck and good health to Rush and crew for the remainder of the tour!
i said this the last time this topic fired up the blogs: Neil is on record from S&A interviews as saying he makes painstaiking efforts (out of necessity i'm sure) to be very careful not to be overtly offensive on such topics. he has succeeded 100% in revealing his ideas in the most benign manner possible. in fact, to be able to say what he says and do it in a manner so consistent with extreme benevolence is one of his top lyrical accomplishments (along with Entre Nous..lol!!!). We love RUSH because they take on intellectual topics as no rock band ever has. it is inevitable that somewhere along the journey a few people would be put-off. that is as fine with me as i'm sure it is with them.
"We hold beliefs as a consolation...
A way to take us out of ourselves..."
when that consolation is taken away, or threatened or questioned, it (potentially) leaves us with nothing BUT ourselves. raw and naked homo sapiens. exposed, if you will. for many people that prospect falls between terrifying and unmanageable. that is not a dig or an insult to anyone, it is basic behavorial science that has no agenda and makes no judgement.
Neil seems best described as a 'Humanists" (a very fast growing segment of population, and i recall described as such just a short time ago right here on this blog by Mrs. Donna Halper,). This whole blog topic makes me think of another great line by Alex's back-up drummer, er, um, i mean NEIL (ha ha, you know who i go to see!) "...i can get along with all the things i can't explain..."
that line is genius of poetry because in one line it summarizes our entire species' thousands of years of grappling with this topic (and if i'm wrong, Neil DID say that it's OK for me to interpret it differently than his intent...lol!).
it seems everyone was mostly friendly here and that's nice to see, thanks.
I feel a sad for the man who left the concert, and he said he was sad. if this band, whom which my entire world of music and entertainment revolves around, would ever turn me away in a similar manner, I would be absolutely emotionally devastated because of how much they mean to me in so many ways.
post #20 shows intelligence, writing skill, and in no objective interpretation bashed the band. the guy said he's been to over 20 RUSH shows, he knows how great they are, and this is not easy for him and is ripping him apart in some ways. he had to get it off his chest and i think he did so in a good respectful way. for those of us who agree with the Neil's writings, we should have no problem whatsoever having those words challenged in a peaceful manner that from what i have seen has induced many of us to interject which serves the positive function of reaffirming where we all stand. in addition, there may be some who have not really devuldged into the topic at this depth, and now, for better or worse, are better informed as to what this band RUSH is about (not that i see this topic as the primary defining facet of).
Oh my, did i, after resisting for days and days, just write a long-ass post on this topic!?!?!?!
I'm going to chime in with post #165 that Faithless did sound awesome.
#168 - Posted 7/29/10 @4:38PM by Earthshine [contact]
Jesus is a myth....discuss
#169 - Posted 7/29/10 @6:10PM by rushdaverush [contact]
I know I shouldn't, but I'm going to jump in here anyway. This really responds to #89 and #20, and as I review the thread, about 75% of the rest of this thread.
I'm a Christian, just not of the variety that is prepared to judge people or adopt a position that says I have the absolute view of all and nobody else is allowed to have a thought. I think it is a pretty mainstream kind of view, and when Neil writes on this topic, he rarely distinguishes between mainstream kind of beliefs versus harmful zealot belief systems. Some of that is probably an unintentional consequence of short songs, but I'm sure some of it is intentional.
I've listened to Rush since forever, and there are a couple of things that have been bothering me with Neil's lyrics of late. One, it is getting tiresome to get this same topic over and over in the lyrics. I get it that in his ideal world nobody would have any religious beliefs, and we would all believe in love and ourselves and hope and happy, and I definitely catch the vibe that if I have a religious belief, I'm not too bright. I've gotten that message pretty clearly during the past few albums. Neil's not about to shape my religious views, however. He's entitled to his opinions and he's a creative writer and whatever. Not that big a deal to me what he chooses to write about. What is starting to concern me is that some of these songs are taking on (and I ask you to excuse me in advance for this but I can't think of a better word) a hymn-like quality. We will all learn the lyrics, and sing/think them at our Rush concerts, everybody together, in the first person, let's sing our mutually shared mantra:
I don't have faith in faith
I don't believe in belief
You can call me faithless
I still cling to hope
And I believe in love
And that's faith enough for me
My reaction? Great. Here's another Rush song that is musically really cool that I can't really sing because I'm just not singing those lyrics in the first person. Yeah, the sentiment is nice enough I guess, but this is not where I'm pinning the spiritual basis of my life. And I love to sing in the car on the drive home, and I really enjoy Rush, but I just can't sing these kinds of songs, so I end up skipping them, and it is a source of frustration. This is supposed to be a form of entertainment for me. I don't want to get beat up or asked to question my faith in this thing.
I guess that's enough meandering for me. Probably not very good comments, I don't know, but I thought I'd hit it from this aspect.
#170 - Posted 7/29/10 @7:01PM by Astroboy [contact]
When it comes to religion, George Carlin said it best LOL
#171 - Posted 7/30/10 @1:04AM by drivenbyrush [contact]
Seems to me that alot of Christians in this blog are quite paranoid about being
converted into something else. There is no need to feel offended. As was said before, Neil is just stating his opinion and his observations. I think he actually
thinks that we should all practice FREEWILL. He is against negative collectivism
and nothing more.....
finally uploaded my photos to the gallery, CORRECTLY this time (thanks, ed). great shots from 3rd row, center. everyone should check them out. may upload more, later.
Rush Time Machine Tour: Jones Beach open thread
Hope you all have good weather!
JONES BEACH Rocks with RUSH
Praetorian!!!
hey!! was wondering when the thread would open!!
i'll paste my humorous (i hope!) post from SPAC here for those who have a sarcastic sense of humor and those who know me probably will 'get it' the most...
p.s. i met a bunch of really weird people again that go to RUSH concerts all over the country. just seems really creepy. get a life people. i mean, what kind of wack job would need to go to 5, 6, 11, 17 or so shows in a year!? what the hell does that even COST!?!? the worst of all is that a-cell-of-awareness guy with the LIFESON license plate from Colorado, he goes all over the country. where does he get the money? he sure doesn't seem very intelligent, think he dropped out of 6th grade, twice. how does he get off work to get to those shows all over, probably an unemployed bum or a white collar criminal, or a bank robber! i heard he's going to Jones Beach, that's all 4 shows this week. Why so hard-core? it's only RUSH. it's not like it's Bachman Turner Overdrive, now that would make total sense. I'm gonna stay away from him from now on...
Cell
Anyone not able to make it out to the show tonight, going to see a great Rush tribute band in Soho NYC. Details at link
Just looking at the MULTIMEDIA photos of SPAC and man the crowds are big at these shows.
I haven't noticed it posted here yet, but Rush.com announced 2 Brazil shows yesterday: Oct 8 in Sao Paulo and Oct 10 in Rio.
#3 Met you in ABQ. and Phoenix for Snakes & Arrows...weird just like all of us!!
Are you going to "play two" in Red Rocks?...or am I just asking the obvious?
I'll be there with a bunch of "weirdoes!"
Have fun tonight all who are going!
Endlessly Rocking!
About to get into the car... on my way at last! on my way at last!
#3 - Love it! And I can only say...um...I wish I could afford to be weirder!!! Normal is overrated anyway... :-D
Leaving in 10 minutes from Rockland County! :)
18th row, Ged's side.
Hope that everyone enjoys the concert!
Good Day!
#3: Yeah jeez man what a loser! :D Like Katskahnne, I too wish that I could be weirder! My little slice of the State 'O Maine is far away from just about every venue that can handle Rush. Boston and Montreal are probably closest, but alas, I have no passport!
Maybe I'll get 'weirder' as more vacation time (and... winning the lottery, that's my game plan) allows. :P
gonna be steamy for sure...have fun everyone
Everyone who is going tonight, have a blast!
For those of you who are in the Boston area and are having a hard time waiting for Sept. 14 - Lotus Land is playing in Cambridge tonight. That's about as close to RUSH as you can get. See you there!
Rush rockin' Long Island tonight!! Enjoy it folks!
Looking forward to some nice ocean breezes ... see y'all there!
Alas - they've come and gone from Canada - so looking forward to the 2011 tour...
to those of you yet to see the current tour - you're gonna love it - awesome.
jiffy lube live show is getting closer & closer--i can't wait! judging from the videos & reviews it's most excellent. what else would you expect...as gene simmons says---it's rush!
everyone enjoy tonight--lucky ducks!
a HUGE night for Rush tribute bands. for all those in LOS ANGELES the band CARESS OF STEEL is playing at Paladino's in the valley at 9pm. Look for me there i'll be the tall guy in the beige Rush shirt. rush on!
November 29, 1982 to July 21, 2010
After nearly 28 years, I have probably attended my last Rush concert. I purchased my tickets for this tour both at Camden, NJ and Bristow, VA before the setlist was announced. As a man of deep Christian faith, I was disappointed that Faithless and BU2B were part of the setlist. I understand that Neil has reached a different conclusion than I have about the existence of a deity. Based on his lyrics, he seems to revile those that share my worldview as brainwashed and blindly following what I have told by others. This mindset is difficult to swallow. As it relates to me, nothing could be further from the truth. I certainly do not share the opinion of non-Christians that Neil's lyrics seems portray of those like me.
Despite all of this, I was really looking forward to hearing TCE, which I consider the greatest piece of music ever written.
I was surprised how negatively I was affected by Faithless and BU2B at the Camden concert. In addition, I was surprised that my 16 year old son was more greatly affected than I was. At intermission, we both decided we would do something that I haven't done in my 20+ Rush concerts; we left at intermission. I'm sure that many if not all of you think that we were crazy to leave. After all why spend money/time etc. Wait for TCE and then leave. Perhaps I should have waited for the setlist before I bought the tickets. In the future I probably will. However, we felt like I didn't belonged anymore. Hearing TCE didn't seem so important.
Given the direction that Clockwork Angels seems to be going, I'm sure I have attended my last Rush concert. I will be attempting to sell my Bristow tickets. I am not bitter or angry; but sad. The anticipation and excitment that I have felt for concerts and new releases is probably gone.
Obviously, there have been other Rush songs that I don't necessary agree with the lyrical content. A Passage to Bankok comes to mind. Most songs in the past can be viewed a couple of ways thus not conflicting with my faith or making me feel alienated. It is hard to interpret the songs I mentioned above more than one way.
Many of their songs continue to be very inspirational to me believe it or not. I still believe that they are unbelievable musicians.
The purpose of this post is not to dissuade anyone from continuing to follow Rush who I still consider myself to be a great fan of. It is merely to express my observations and feelings after attending one of their shows.
Have fun!
#2O later! can't say I feel anything but sad for you.
#9: What's Normal now, anyhow? ;D
Hope everyone who's going is having a total blast right about now!
bgibsonjr (#20): Thank you for sharing your insights as a Christian Rush fan... I am sad that this song drove you to leave the concert. That must have been a really rough decision to make, all things considered. It's a real bummer that those songs got you to a point where you could no longer enjoy the show.
I feel that "Faithless" is a lot more subtle than "BU2B." It's a very live-and-let-live kind of song, at least up to the lyric, "Fools and thieves are dangerous in the temple and marketplace." "BU2B," however, must sound incredibly condescending to people with a strong faith in a higher power. I found myself on many occasions pondering how this might alienate some Rush fans.
We are, after all, a very diverse group!
#20, Why can't you just agree to disagree with the lyrics and Peart's opinions? Looks like you better stick with Christian rock. Look at all the songs out there about boozing it up and fornication. Believer or not, I could care less about Neil's opinion of anything nor am I going to take it to heart as you seem to be. Lighten up Holmes or listen to Stryper....you decide. All Neil cares about is that you show up at the hall and buy the cd's and dvd's etc. He in turn will give his best effort. It's that simple.
#20 -- I can understand how you might feel conflicted and alienated. Faithless is about how he (and Ged; if not Al too) feel. It's not necessarily for you, unless it can help you understand how someone else thinks and lives.
But to say that Neil "seems to revile those that share my worldview as brainwashed and blindly following what I have told by others" seems like an unfair generalization. He may feel that way about those who take advantage of other people or those who try to "convert" him, but i think that's about it. He doesn't seem to have a problem w. people having their armor -- no one gets to their heaven w/out a fight, after all.
I think Rush too would be disappointed w. your reaction. I'm sure it's not their intention to offend -- Neil said in the MVI he wasn't trying to "protest" or "fight" or "make enemies".
And anyway, i think a little confusion and confliction is a good thing.
#20 Sorry to hear that dude. Its a testament to how powerful their music is and how it effects people in different ways. It had the complete opposite effect on me, a light bulb came on and I realized (after the last four years of trying) I that me and religion don't belong together. I never grew up around religion (what a blessing that was, ha) so I never needed any of that stuff but at one point I needed, help I suppose, in turning a quite painful page in my life. Looking back, it wasn't some celestial force that helped me it was PEOPLE, good people that helped me get back on track. Rush's music has helped me embrace who I am and what I believe, and not let anyone or anything stuff me into a box I won't ever fit in.
Off topic... I finally received my VIP Ticketmaster package today. The "Special Design" shirt listed in the package details, is a grey flying rocks design (crummy nock-off) I looked-up shirts on (fanfire) LiveNation which were package was being handled through, and noticed a "Special Tour" design shirt for $25. I guess I will have to order that?
I also have to find some Snakes & Arrows shirts I missed-out on in 2008 (money issues back then). I ordered the few I've seen lately on the Backstage site. I now have over 260 Rush concert, album art and specialty t-shirts in my ever growing collection. One of these days I will have to photograph them and set-up a web site so all you RUSHHEADS can view them.
Three weeks and counting to MGM show...
RUSH ON !!!
#28....USPS, UPS, or Fed Ex????
#24 - Thanks for your understanding. I do follow you on both accounts. Perhaps I do take this too personally but the "Fools and thieves" line is tough to take. I do share my faith with others but I also associate and respect those whose worldview and livestyle is in direct contrast with mine on a regular basis and count many as my friends.
In BU2B the "while our loving Watchmaker loves us all to death" is even tougher to take. As you alluded to, I find that one in particular very difficult to see another way and believe me I have tried!
great show. videos were hilarious, the steampunk aesthetic is very cool. i had issues with some song selection (knew it going in of course...)how do time stand still, presto, Leave that thing alone, stick it out, faithless and far cry get playing time while analog kid, xanadu, jacob's ladder, enemy within, and the like ride the pines? but you only get to pick 'em when you write 'em so...
it was all about camera eye for me. thx boys...
I can't believe how offended some people get from the songs "Faithless" and "BU2B" ! Post 26 said it well ! In BU2B, Neil isn't generalizing and saying that all people that follow a religion are "brainwashed", he is saying that SOME people blindly follow without opening their minds and personally that was what HE was brought up to believe, not necessarily what everyone else is taught or follows ! Fact is, there are some people who blindly follow without questioning and there has been and continues to be so much bloodshed resulting from people just blindly following and doing what they are told instead of questioning,which is how I think God intended us to learn! The song says "I was brought up to believe", not "you were brought up to believe" ! Neil is just a musician and writer giving his opinion and thoughts,no need to take what he writes in his lyrics so personally ! I was brought up Catholic and have my own personal relationship with God but regarding Neil and some of his tragic experiences, I can understand how he would question many things and I can personally relate to much of BU2B, but it is only a song ! Shouldn't really affect people so strongly, unless someone does blindly follow what is being told to them, or in this case, sung to them!
#29- USPS...
Once I received the ordering instructions via e-mail, I completed and ordered it on June 4th. I received an e-mail on July 7th (after sending an e-mail inquiry a week earlier). The e-mail stated that orders will start to mail out. I sent another e-mail inquiry on July 16th, asking if there were any problems with my order. I received back an e-mail two or three days later, stating that they had fulfillment issues. (?) And I would receive an e-mail to track order when it was sent out.
I logged-into the LiveNation (fanfire) site after my package arrived this morning, and details still showed there was no shipping information for my order. Also, the "collectible tour poster (limited edition, numbered)" was a cardboard Fly By Night fake looking type of thing. I will most likely frame it and give it to a friend. I held off downloading Caravan and BU2B (but caught them on YOU TUBE a bunch) because I thought that my package would arrive sooner then it did. I have to start to listen to them a bunch more befor the August 14th show. I'm looking forward to the entire album next year.
LiveNation should get their act together, as near as I can tell, it's shame full
RUSH ON !!!
Re bgibsonjr's response in #20: That's just How It Is. The minute an opinion is expressed (on almost any subject), *someone* will feel alienated. Matters of faith are felt deeply. Sometimes it just can't be helped...
bgibsonjr(#20) so sorry that you and your son had such a bad experience, but have nothing but respect for your decision to leave early, since that is what you felt you needed to do. As a 27 year Rush fan and a Christian, I too am struggling with some of Neils recent lyrics. Unfortunately, it seems to me that Neil has moved beyond occasional lyrics about his world-view, such as Freewill, into the area of actively bashing Christianity, and religion in general. I find it sad and a bit pathetic that he feels the need to do this.
Necromancer2112(#32) while I understand and respect your viewpoint, I must disagree with the last thing you said. The effect that the lyrics has on a person has nothing to do with blindly following anything. For a person of real faith, that faith is the primary thing that their life is about, and not just a preference or set of principles. I don't think it is unreasonable to feel personally offended.
Having said that, I am aware of the lyrics to the songs, and am still anxiously awaiting my shows coming up. I just really hope that Neil can find something else to write about in the future.
Awesome show as usual. Those at the previous shows that thought it was slow at the beginning, or that Al looked bored must have caught them on a bad day. For me, the only slow portion was 'Faithless'- just don't think it translated well live. As for the aforementioned Mr Lifeson, he completely shredded tonight, for those of us that were there.. La Villa was soloing intensity at its finest. Camera Eye alone was worth the admission.. Closer to the Heart, etc I could go on and on. The new songs, even heavier live.
The boys got one thing wrong however, in the end video they continued the running joke of no women at Rush shows.... there were more women out tonight than Ive ever seen at a show, and they were looking good. Maybe the joke is over?
Fucking amazing show. Camera Eye and La Villa were such a pleasure to hear, and the boys did a great job of cutting them both down timewise without losing the effect both songs have. As mentioned, the videos were unexpectedly hilarious. I've always chuckled at all the instances of that trademark Rush humor, but I never expected to crack up at these videos. Genius.
In my opinion, the setlist was just average. I had no idea of the setlist before the show because I wanted it to be a surprise. Aside from the given must-play songs (Moving Pix, Spirit of Radio, Caravan+BU2B, etc), the choices were somewhat disappointing. Time Stand Still and Stick It Out were great, but songs like Leave That Thing Alone was just so unnecessary not only because it was their second off Counterparts, but also given the fact that there were already 4 instrumentals in the setlist including Neil's and Alex's respective solos. I would've much rather heard something early like Xanadu, Anthem, or anything off GUP. Something like The Pass, Driven, or a VT song would've been cool too.
All in all, tonight's show was still my favorite show of all time despite my minor grievances with the setlist. I've only been to around 20 shows in my life, and 2 of them Rush shows (I'm 16, gimme a break), but I can safely say tonight was an amazing experience I'll never forget.
We're all a bunch of analytical folks here. We like to pick things apart and look for meaning. We shouldn't chastise each other over dissenting opinions and different findings.
I think that #20 was "agreeing to disagree" just fine. I wasn't struck by the lyrics like they were, but I can understand where they're coming from. Doesn't sound like they took up signs and picketed outside the venue or anything; they just left the show and posted about their feelings here. They don't strike me as the type of person to write hate mail over this kind of thing, either.
Everybody has a right to be thrown for a loop about the direction that a band takes. We're all guilty of a little hemming-and-hawing here and there, though often, we nit-pick over instrumental technique and the like instead of lyrical content.
#32 - you said it well too..
#35 - "Neil has moved...into the area of actively bashing Christianity, and religion in general"
where? That may be how you are interpreting something, but, again, that's an unfair statement to make (especially w/out stating your case).
#30 -- why are those line "tough to take"?
I'm not looking for an argument, I just don't think these interpretations have been explained well, and yet accusations of Neil reviling and bashing his fans have been made. Do you really think that's his intention?
I agree with a bunch of the statements made since post #20. No offense to anyone ,but I am kind of surprised that the person who wrote post #20 has listened to Rush this long, really. Neil has made countless comments whether it be in his books, some of Rush's songs over the years about how HE FEELS about religion. Personally, I've always identified with how he feels about that very serious subject (among other subjects). Heck, I remember years ago, when my older brother got married (in the early 80's) and became a "born again Christian" and he went to some kind of retreat with his new wife and after that, he gave all his albums to one of her cousins , because I guess rock music of "that" kind didn't fit into his new beliefs. Among those albums would have been Fly by night and some Beatles ,Rolling stones, Jethro Tull albums (those are some of the albums I remember seeing when I was a kid). Fortunately, my other brother didn't go that "route" and I was able to hear alot of great 70's rock music and that was what formed the basis of my musical taste.
But, the point being...I had an older brother who became Christian and rock music went out the window, so it is surprising to me, that there seems to be many Rush fans who are religious. I kinda like it, actually. I also kinda liked it when I saw a few pictures from the recent concerts and saw a guy with a turbin in the front row. I think that is awesome, to see that diversity, even when so many people have different ideologies, beliefs, or lack there of.
I don't think Neil is bashing religion necessarily, I think he respects the fact that for many people religion is their armor and that's okay, it's when it is used as a bloody sword and used to manipulate and control people that it is used wrong ! I doubt that bgibsonjr and whatever his religious beliefs may be would fall under the category of what Neil is referring to in his lyrics,IMO ! I just find it interesting to give up experiencing Rush's great music live because of one 4 minute song that just expresses the opinion and experiences of one man ! Whether I agree or disagree with Neil's opinion of many subjects is not going to change the way I enjoy the music, it is just going to make me think and consider someone elses viewpoint and maybe even question things that might not make sense ! I respect people who may be offended but find it unfortunate that this affects the way they might look at Neil and the band in the future and keep life long fans such as themselves from experiencing great live performances while we are still fortunate to be able to go see them live !
"... songs like Leave That Thing Alone was just so unnecessary not only because it was their second off Counterparts, but also given the fact that there were already 4 instrumentals in the setlist including Neil's and Alex's respective solos. I would've much rather heard something early like Xanadu, Anthem, or anything off GUP. Something like The Pass, Driven, or a VT song would've been cool too."
#37 - I have heard from people who have worked with Rush's live show over recent years that the reason instrumentals are strategically placed in the sets are to give Geddy's voice a 5 or 6 minute break. As for why they chose LTTA this time i dunno - but being a bass player i thoroughly enjoyed it!
I agree, I think "Leave that thing alone" is a good song, especially if you pick out the bass lines and Alex's solo has alot of emotion in it !
responding to post#35, "actively bashing" is probably a stronger phrase than I really intended. If you reread my post, I did state at the beginning of the sentence "It seems to me that.." . I was not stating anything as fact, just expressing my feelings. I am referring to pretty much the entire lyrics of BU2B, and some of the lines in Faithless (ie: Fools and Thieves...). There are a number of lines throughout Snakes and Arrows (the opening lines to Far Cry and Some of the lines in Armor and sword), which can be taken as being negative toward religion.
I understand that Neil does not share my faith and respect that. I do not think his intention is to bash his fans, but in reading his books and listening to some of his lyrics, I believe he does, perhaps unintentionally, show a lack of respect for the beliefs of a good number of Rush fans. If it is intentional, that is his prerogative and I'm ok with it although I would find it to be a bit sad on his part.
Rush is still the greatest band in the world and on that I think most of us would agree.
#44-
Think of how unreasonable of an expectation it would be for Neil (or Alex or Geddy for that matter) to respect every single Rush's beliefs of wishes or wants and needs. Seriously now ,think about that for a minute. It's not possible, since there is probably at least one million serious Rush fans out there.
*insert the word "fans" before the word "beliefs" on my fist sentence last post.
About my posts #28 and #33...
I have not checked in here to RIAB for a week, so I did not see Eds' Open thred for this past Thursday 22nd .
His statement and the comments are all right on the money with what I said... I guess I did not need to say it anyhow? That's what I get for not checking-in for over a week, or looking at past posts.
For those of you that did not get your items yet, the shirt in the photo is most likely what your going to get... Same with the rest of the items I'm guessing.
I don't think it's Ticketmaster's fault, I'm thinking it's LiveNation (Fanfire) fault, even though they are now the same company, they are separate in the way the function.
RUSH ON !!!
#47 Thanks for the updates.
I did not know the setlist coming in. I have to say
I'm a bit dissapointed. I don't know how much of a
time machine the show really was. I can't see how Presto,
Stick it Out & Leave That Thing make the list. I had a
feeling Spirit would be the opener, but was looking for
Jacobs Ladder and In The Mood! Very un-eventful tonight.
I haven't missed a show in 29 years but have to say that
R30 was the best tour that showcased a time machine so
to speak and still the best tour since.
OK RUSH fans, they did something tonight that is a first for the tour (as far as I know, and I've been to 4 others). They had very aesthetically appealing (um, yeah!) young ladies walk across the stage like beer servers in the video. the FUNNIEST thing ever was that the second time they did it (i think camera eye) alex was in front of his amps and playing a super extended arpeggio part with his eyes closed and missed the whole thing even though they were out there for a minute and walked so close to him i thought he would smell them...lol!!! then the crew on Alex's side of the stage began to catch on that Alex's never even saw them and began laughing their asses off, and i'm sure Alex has heard about it from them!
#44 - I agree w. you in part in paragraph 2 -- unintentionally, he may show a lack of respect for others' beliefs. And i especially agree w. your third paragraph...:)
But in paragraph 1, you mention some songs and one phrase that "can be taken as being negative toward religion", but haven't described WHY or HOW they can be taken that way. Pardon me for singling you out, but that's what is lacking not just in this thread but in previous threads on the topic.
Perhaps this isn't the venue to hash it out line by line, but I wonder if the folks who do perceive his lyrics as anti-religion actually tried to type out their rationale, if they would start to see the gray areas -- hmmm, maybe he means something else...hmmm, what is he really trying to say here...
I know those same lyrics, and I hear the tone in Geddy's voice and I've read Neil's books and listened to his interviews and I grew up Catholic, and I don't perceive the lyrics as anti religion. Philosophical, thought-provoking, and opinionated, yes. But if someone finds strength in their faith, he has stated that CAN be a good kind of Armor.
after 5 shows so far I strongly believe that Alex is lost in the mix, not enough volume off his amps. I went to a boatload of R30 & S&A shows and he sounded incredible, and even better if you were in that 'critical mass' area in front of his amps where I always try to be. I was right in front of those amps all night tonight, front row, and they're not loud enough. I was also 3rd row Alex, side bleachers at one show, 10th row at one, and in Camden mid orchestra and moved around all night because my seat sucked (i even went to the lawn for a couple songs!). Yes, I admit I am biased because I go mostly to see/hear Alex. However, objectively, when you can barely make out the arpeggios he hits in Camera Eys while those big bad chords sustain, well, it just makes me want to bring up the topic. He went from 32 speakers to 6, albeit he may be pushing those 6 to the max compared to jogging along with the 4 HK stacks, but he's not loud enough. how can 3 2X12 cabinets match 4 full stacks at venues like this? It even seemed tonight as if Alex was communicating on more than one occasion to the crew that he couldn't hear them (just my observation, subject to being 100% wrong). i don't know crap about engineering a concert, but i know a thing or two about hearing one, especially RUSH, and Alex is not cutting through at all, period. At every R30 show, for example, he sounded just like on the DVD, which is absolutely stunning. S&A was pretty much the same. Has anyone else made a similar observation?
dang!! i should have filmed Camera Eye and would have Alex missing the girls...lol!! hopefully someone got it, Alex will probably get on youtube himself to see how funny it is!
51 posts and only a handful of actual comments about the show. Who gives a shit if Neil's an atheist? It took you until Faithless and BU2B to figure that out? Relax, for crying out loud, they're a rock band. That's it. And, as was mentioned before, their HIS words and he's speaking for HIMSELF! It's "I don't have faith in faith", not "YOU (or WE) don't have faith..."
Faithless was one of the highlights of the show for me. It was nice to hear MP, but I've heard all those songs (except TCE obviously) a zillion times live so it wasn't really a big deal. (TCE was AMAZING!!!) I always appreciate the surprises at Rush shows a lot more than the standards. I nearly shit my pants when they played "Presto" and "Marathon!" I'd love to see a show someday where they do ALL obscure numbers. Maybe the 'Fear' trilogy? I can dream can't I?
As is always the case with Jones Beach for some reason, the sound was disappointing. Every show I've seen there, with the soul exception of RTB (their first appearance there), there have been sound issues. Things seemed a bit better in the second half but still not great. The band was on, though, as always but not the best I've seen. (this was #41 or 42 for me, I lost count)
Sadly, money is tight this year and this will be my only show. I'm sure they'll record this somewhere and I look forward to the dvd! Hopefully I'll have more cash next summer for the "Clockwork Angels" tour!
Oops. I meant fear quartet.
#20- you know this blog is for fans of rush not for people who just want to come on here and bash on them because neil writes some lyrics that upset you, well guess what he's not writeing them because he thinks everyones going to like it.He writes things that are relevent to his life and thats it.Why would you come on this blog and waste your time talking crap about them if your a true fan.I dont care what they play what they write or how they do it because at the end of the day there 3 people just like you and me and thats it.There fucking awsome musicians and thats why we love them.go hate somewhere else but not here.There music is inspirational in so many ways i would never waste my time bad mouthing them and as far as there show glitches go, shit happends it makes the show more real and they conquer thru those glitches like no other.Seeing them both days at red rocks then back down to florida for tampa and west palm.Cant wait.Just remember when there gone your gonna wish you wouldnt have talked shit.
i agree with #54
#20: This is my first ever post here; your open and honest post compelled me to sign up and respond. While I greatly respect your decision to walk away from something that seems contrary to your beliefs I, like many others here, thought I'd share a few thoughts about the songs in question.
My father, who was a devout Christian who sang the gospel as a hobby for 30 years, died not long after Snakes and Arrows was released. After learning that he was terminal, the minister from our church came by the house. The first words out of my dad's mouth were from Mark 9:24: "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!" This was very powerful to me, as a man who professed strong faith all his life was willing to express a small measure of doubt when he knew his life was going to end. This was the context in which I first heard "Faithless."
But as I listened to the words in "Faithless" I could not help but notice that the chorus is simply a rephrasing of 1 Corinthians 13:13. Essentially, love trumps faith and hope, and regardless of what was going on in my life, or the end of my dad's life, or whether or not eternity awaited him, my obligation to him and to my family was to love. I think the "temple and marketplace" line is there to remind us that there are many fools even within religion who merely use the impression of religion for their own status, image, etc. and do not grapple with the larger questions that religion can help answer.
As for BU2B, I find that the "loving watchmaker" line is actually a bit ironic. The "watchmaker" is a deist concept, not Christian, and by default not "loving" in any capacity. This line expresses, to me, the difficulty in coming to terms with different religious views all the while knowing we are all going to die. Having lost my dad (and then the next year my father-in-law to suicide!!!) this song merely expresses (to me) the confounding nature of the problem of evil. If God is all powerful, He cannot be all loving. If God is all loving, He cannot be all powerful. My own minister acknowledges this paradox. To recognize this difficulty is not to disregard religion. In fact, a good friend of mine in seminary had to take an entire class on it.
At any rate, my post is merely meant to express how these songs can actually be uplifting or helpful, depending on the context in which they are listened to. Perhaps you will always find them objectionable. Oddly enough, as a Christian I found them to be helpful and even enlightening.
#58 Great post, I agree. I grew up in a family of Southern Baptist and it actually drove me away from Religion. We recently had a son and I have conflicts within myself about how to introduce him to religion. I think I owe it to him to expose him to religion and let him decide for himself. "FREWILL"
#20 It seems to me your guilty of the very thing you accuse Neil of....IMO
A-CELL
Their is tonal change for sure in Alex's new setup. 6 12"
Speakers don't cut it when you have a monster sound like Alex. I think they sound a bit boxy. Although his CEye tone sounds dead on.
He is running a lot more of his sound through front of house and I don't see any mic's so I'm guessing its direct somehow.
I would love to see him go back to HIWATT! pipedream...
wow...just wow. incredible show. i was eight rows back on the inside aisle on Alex's side, and he was loving the audience. i was certainly doing my best at 'bromancing' him. my only gripe is that my girlfriend bobbled and lost a shirt Alex threw at the encore. if she hadn't knocked it forward it would have hit her right in the chest!
#50- i was half-expecting Alex to follow the girls off stage, but he was completely oblivious.
wow...so typical for people of "faith" to feel the need to share their personal "hurt" at someone's opinion. Don't like it, so what? Just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't mean you have to agree. Just agree to disagree and move on...don't completely write someone or something off because they don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster. If baffles me how people are so controlled by religion that it infiltrates ever facet of their life like this.
#53 Here's a vid (not mine) of Alex missing the "Moving Pitchers" girls. Starts at about 3:50. You can see how zoned into the music Alex is if you watch the big screen just as they come out.
link
absolutely incredible show! fantastic weather. i was sitting 3rd row center. i submitted 40 photos this morning to ed. god only knows if i did it correctly. will check later. couldn't view photos as i was uploading, so didn't place captions. if photos don't go through, will try again. i think my iphone said i took over 500 photos last night. the boyz were SO on! alex came to center stage like a billion times. one of my favs for the night was THE CAMERA EYE. can't recall if i've ever seen them do that before. the chicks crossing the stage with the beers was unbelievable also. great stuff.
special kudos to the family of three sitting in front of me in the second row. dad, mom, and young son rockin' out to rush as a family. it was a beautiful sight to see. i tried uploading the photos of the kid totally keeping time with neil. i hope those pictures uploaded. you had to see it. this kid was SO YOUNG, and so cool. totally following pratt's time, as jack black said in beyond the lighted stage... "to the a-t-o-m."
great work mom and dad. hope to see all 3 of you at pnc in jersey (2nd row, can't wait). this kid was the icing on the cake to the show. everyone sitting around him couldn't believe it.
absolutely FANTASTIC night.
Outstanding show, though J.B's acoustics leave a lot to be desired. The first act set list played better to me than I saw on paper. Alex played really inspired and his solos in several songs were well received by the fans. Geddy seemed a little annoyed about the "moving pitchers" gag with the three women, he even said "That's enough" when it seemed that one of the ladies was playing to the fans too much. All in all, a great night.
#58... Thank you.
Most of the time I enjoy reading these posts and try not to read the spoilers. Many times I want to post my opinions but wait to see what others will say. With that I got agree with #56 and #58 did an outstanding job, very interesting read.
I don't feel like looking up who said it, but I want to clarify one thing -- you can describe "Faithless" any number of ways, but "subtle" is not one of them.
Does anyone know what the banner said that was thrown at Geddy during Faithless? I'm really hoping that strong opposition to the "religion bashing" songs don't bring out the sickos who are capable of doing stupid stuff in the name of what they believe.
Different eyes see different things
Different hearts beat on differnt strings
The sooner that humanity can grasp this concept the better, otherwise we are all screwed.
My 2 cents on the faith subject for what it is worth. I actually started listening to Rush years ago as one who was brought up to beleive as a christian. I liked rock music and the only thing most bands play are raunchy, sexual,evil,drug related garbage. Christian rock was pretty lame back then Rush has plenty of great music that I have enjoyed and still do. I don't get offended at their beliefs as they are not mine. At least Rush is straight up and don't try and hide lyrics as many christian rock bands of today so they can sell to christian and secular people. I feel Neils biggest problem is with the prosperity religions and people going overboard. I have seen my share of garbage in all walks of faith and feel this is what really gets to Neil.
Can't wait for August 7.
Question non related to the thread for you in the Northwest.
Is it impossible to drive to White River and is the shuttle the best route?
Well said #54 - knew you'd enjoy the show...
Imagine leaving a concert in which you went to see "the greatest piece of music ever written" because you were butthurt over some lyrics you don't agree with.
LOL
-58- You expressed so eloquently the same as I feel. And for the record, I do not believe that Neil is an atheist. I think his lyrics are expressions of a very intellectual mind, which I can really appreciate. Maybe that is why I relate to them in a different way than others, but I find them to be related to the many ironies that exist on this earth, and the ever changing human condition. A good example IMO is written in LARGER BOWL.
I don't understand why people of faith are so intolerant of those who aren't fanatical about it. People always point to the middle east for examples of religious extremists when there are so many fine examples here in our own country.
#58-- Thank you for sharing that! This is the type of discussion that I would hope to see among Rush fans. This is a good way to think of the heady lyrics we're presented with. I am also sorry to hear about the loss of your father!
There's something utterly philosophical about the way that Rush songs are written. They will be interpreted differently person-to-person, as I'd imagine all good writing can be.
I am sure that Neil is not making any sweeping generalizations in his lyric writing when he talks about "fools and thieves" and the like. I see it as a 'one-bad-apple' kind of thing-- Take fans for example. Neil is notorious for not attending meet-and-greets and the like. This isn't because he hates all Rush fans or anything like that, however. He's just afraid of that one psycho guy in a million that's going to follow him back to his tour bus and demand a signature or something like that.
The same frame of thought, I think, is what produces some of his lyrics.
We're not all going to come to the same conclusion about such matters, though, which is another one of those things that makes Rush a lot more intellectually awesome than... er... Nickelback.
-- Anyhow! --
It sounds like this New York show was one of those "Magic" shows, eh? Thanks for the reports!
#64: Little kid rocking out to Rush? This is awesome. He's going to grow up to be the SMARTEST KID EVER! :P I wish I'd been so lucky as to be introduced to the band at such a young age. Surely I'd have taken over the WORLD by now!
Geddy, Alex, and Neil have all led decent lives. They have been loyal and faithful to their family and friends. Aside from the fact that they are great musicians, outstanding showmen, and continue to put out fantastic music; they have earned my respect and admiration. I don't have to believe as they might believe. I am along for the ride and can't wait for Red Rocks (except that would signal the end of my summer)!
Answer for #71 - Posted 7/25/10 @11:49AM by cagster
Question non related to the thread for you in the Northwest.
Is it impossible to drive to White River and is the shuttle the best route?
When I saw them at WhiteRiver in 2007. We drove in from Seattle. If you drive YOU MUST head in very very early. A RUSH tribute band is playing at the Muckleshoot casino before the show this year. If you make it that far by 4 or 5pm at the latest then you should be fine as far as getting in to the venue on time. If you get there any later than 5 then you will be dealing with a single lane entry road.
Getting out is the major problem. The free parking at WhiteRiver is staffed by stoned out of their wits teenagers. There is ZERO organization! Last tour we sat in the parking lot waiting for 3.5 hours to get out! There is no point in rushing to your car before the end of the encore because cars are let out at that point.
If you do not have premium parking then the shuttle is the only way to go.
Throughout this thread, I have heard several "Rush fans" say how they were disappointed in their set list, and the night was just okay.
How many more tours do you think Rush are going to do? Geeeze, appreciate them while they are still around! They aren't far from retiring!
I also fail to understand how so called fans are complaining about the setlist, sound quality and so on. It seems the vast majority are perfectly happy, simply thrilled that Rush are still touring, still writing great new songs and still putting on top quality shows. I saw Muse earlier this year - lauded by many as the best live band of the present day and Rush made them seem like kids in comparison. As for the poor delicate folks who leave half way through a show because they play Faithless or BU2B - sorry but that is plain absurd. Perfect examples of religious intolerance. Neil has an opinion and expresses it eloquently. If he were writing songs ignorantly opposing religious faith and using sixth grade language to do it, I might be able to understand why people get so upset but he does not. Anyone daft enough to not get Neil and his points of view after all this time is just kinda silly. Granted, if I was not already free of religious zeal maybe I would feel differently, but fortunately that is not the case. Anyway - as a long, long time Rush fan - I am delighted by their performances this tour, happy with the setlist and looking forward to 2011 - surely a great year to be a fan.
Right on #80. Allow #20's post has made for some good reading in here.
I wonder now if #20 went to the trouble of writing that because they were looking for advice or trying to convert people?
Saw the show at Jone's Beach last night. AWESOME! One of the best I've seen, and I've seen every tour since and including Signals.
If somebody left early because of BU2B or FAITHLESS, I'm glad they left. Ridiculous.
#58 - Wow. I was going to post my $0.02 on the matter but you pretty much nailed what I was going to say, and probably way better than I'd have said it. Kudos.
#50 - LOL! When he's on Planet Lerxst, there ain't no pulling him back down until he's dang good and ready!! :-D
18 days...this is gonna be like 18 seconds at the end of a basketball game - you know what I'm saying, intentional fouls, free throws, time-outs...18 seconds can take 45 minutes! That's how it's feeling...argh...
P.S. Just heard from my friend whose daughter I'm babysitting...she's getting here tomorrow afternoon and we're gonna have a "screening" of the Rush doc so she can see it!! :-) I'm so looking forward to showing it to a good friend for the first time!
My show is next. They will all be rested up and the blister healed.
Very interesting reading everyone. #58 #80.
I am LDS and love Rush. It does not even bother me that Neil called me a So-Called Elder in his August 2009 "A Little Yellow Cabin on Yellowstone Lake" Essay. I love Ghost of a Chance. I believe in angles and God. But I think of how the song conveys that love and finding someone is even stronger. And it has my favorite Alex solo.
In high school I painted a beautiful 3' by 4' Star Man.
After I served an LDS mission in Los Angeles, I came home and ripped it up. One of the dumbest things I ever did.
I love all my friends and respect their beliefs or even if they don't believe.
Rush is so awesome and I can't wait to see them in 11 days.
Check out Neil's website--Time Machine.
#71
I agree with ColdFire466...take the shuttle. Parking is a nightmare and getting out after the show could take 1-3 hours.
When we saw Rush in 2007 at WRA we were on a bus 5 minutes after the show and back to Auburn in 25 minutes.
Hi everyone...just a comment about the BU2B and Faithless thing. Those who see these songs as rants against religion have missed the point entirely and if you have read the lyrics then you surely don't understand them. Neil is speaking about his own experience and what he feels about it and how he has found flaws with these experiences.
He does not bash religion and in fact has had some very kind things to say about my religion and the people who live it (Latter-day Saint or Mormon if you don't know the formal name) in some of his writings, rather I think he is saying that he doesn't understand the pain he sees in the world and surely doesn't understand how or why people claiming to be believers or religious can act as they do in the name of God. He says clearly that
"I don't have faith in faith
I don't believe in belief
You can call me faithless
I still cling to hope
And I believe in love
And that's faith enough for me"
Clearly FAITH means organized religion and BELIEF speaks to our belief in that organization. He's not attacking anyone nor is he dispariging what they believe he is merely making an observation on the whole process. He clings to hope and he believes in love what is more faithful than that? Give me a break folks he is searching and the answers yet elude him...he has faith enough for now and the search goes on. His mind is not closed just skeptical.
The same goes for BU2B...just look at the anagram itself...speaks volumes...Be YOU to BE!!! How wonderful...find your way question what you're told find the truth. He is again questioning the nature of the universe and the unfairness he sees. For myself I see it in a different way and I don't have those questions I understand what I see differently, but I am surely not offended by what he is saying nor will I stop listening to Rush after 35 years because of an observation I don't agree with...makes no sense. I think that we should not take offence where no offence was meant.
Well, enough then...good songs great sentiments...they make you think and they have depth...that's what I care about and the rest is pointless...let it ROCK!!!
Salt Lake City show in about 2 weeks...I'll be there...endlessly rocking with my 17 year old son...second tour for him...untold number for me...I'm ready!
ks.
#86 & #89, thanks for your comments. I too am LDS and my initial reaction to Faithless and BU2B was very negative...but I have changed my mind after further pondering. Understandibly, Neil has had experiences that I hope I, nor anyone else has to experience as a husband or father. That said, my disagreement is tempered...his feelings, not mine.
I love the music of Rush. I love music in general...music connects me to people, places and experiences like no other vehicle. In a snap, a song takes me back in time.
I'm on the mends from some pretty serious radiation and chemo for a cancer that I had never heard of before...squamous cell carcinoma. As my poster name suggests, I am a former powerlifter and have been in very good physical condition my entire life. At 48 years of age with four children ten years of age and younger, cancer has changed my perspective on many things. The experiences that my family and I have had have strengthened our faith and belief.
I have a long wait until Sept. 25th when my sweet wife will join me at Cynthia Woods for her first Rush show...but I know it will be well worth it, she will be blown away.
Rush on.
#62, #75 - What you accuse Christians of annoying you, the atheists are just as guilty of. The problem with modern atheists is they make a living out of bashing anything religious, act bitter when the word Christianity is mentioned, and look down on religious folks as being dumb. Neil's lyrics certainly have similar overtones. That's why #20 isn't digging it. Just look at Richard Dawkins for example. Although he is no expert on religion by anyone's standards (just read a few pages of his piece of crap/rant god delusion and you'll see what I mean - nothing's cohesive except you know it's an angry rant), the guy's credibility hinges on him being an evolutionary biologist at Oxford, but he doesn't even run a lab or do experiments. How good is that for credibility? (If you were scientist, you would surely know these types of "bum" scientists who are good at "politics", collect their paychecks, but get nothing done in the way of research or mentoring students.) He's just a loud talker, little doer. He isn't any smarter than your average "believer" scientist who works his ass off.
That being said, I know plenty of people who are religious, including family members. They certainly aren't anywhere close to being dumb or "fools in the temple who do what they're told". After all, I remember from growing up as a kid learning religion in school that somewhere in the bible (NT) it says "Test all things" (as opposed to "believe what you're told") - doesn't look like Dawkins or Neil Peart have ever read anything from that book. Especially in 2010, anyone religious has got to be constantly watching out for that, as they always get accused by atheists and secular liberals of being dumb, gullible and annoying.
Anyways, the songs Freewill, Ghost of a chance, BU2B really sound great. I have no problem listening to them. But Faithless, I think is a weak song. That's the deeper problem. Dumb lyrics, weak music. It's a bit like "Speed of love", in my opinion. It's a weakling and doesn't fit well in the setlist. It shouldn't have made the cut. Neither should Presto, Time Stand Still, or Leave That Thing Alone.
Just my opinion.
I'm pretty sure the sign thrown at Geddy was a Holland Loves Rush sign. I saw it before the show, with guys taking pics with it.
I thought the show was absolutely inspired!! I could make some small disagreements with the set list, but they played the hell out of it!!
#91-
I disagree Faithless and Speed of love are dumb songs with dumb lyrics. Just my opinion ,too.
I am actually surprised there are so many ,if even any Rush fans that are religious. I never would have expected it. I mean, if the lyrics or messages in them contradict how you feel and if it bothers you so much, find another band. Simple as that!
#20- you sure opened a big can of worms, buddy!
And ...this is exactly one of the things that pushed me away from religion years ago. The disagreements, anger, finger pointing, judging, war, etc etc that it causes all over the world!! That very statement will offend people I am sure!!
Time for a new thread, I think.
Religion has caused a lot of human suffering. Wars, Persecution ect..
Sorry, I can't let that go unreplied.
Let's not forget the suffering and death Atheism has caused: the millions who died under Soviet Socialism and its satellites, the well-known brutality of the soul-less Nazi empire, and don't forget the tens of millions of people who have died under Mao-tse-tungs purges. Nothing even comes close to these.
#96 Really, NAZI Germany's extermination of the Jews had nothing to do Judaism? Stop please!
Faith - or lack thereof - has INDEED caused a lot of death.
So has land, food, tulips, guano (look it up), oil, gold, water, and straight up personality disputes. WHO CARES.
I like that people can express themselves on this board.
But none of you, on either side of the fence, are going to change my mind or anyone else's. "The ones we wish would hear us / have heard it all before."
And the same goes for me.
I'll jump on the "faithless doesn't sound good live" bandwagon, I still like the song but it doesn't sound good live.
What I have a problem with is anyone who isn't religious or criticize it is labeled an atheist. Do people not know what atheism is??? Atheist BELIEVE there is no god, and then theres people who BELIEVE there is a god. Atheism is a religion, they're drinking the same koolade just a different flavor. People can be so hostile to people who believe and people who don't. Living here in one of the most religious states and city (Tulsa, OK - there are more churches per square mile in Tulsa than anywhere in the US), it's quite easy to coexist with people of faith, everyone I know is religious except for one and I don't ridicule them I respect their decision and thats pretty much it.
I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose Freewill.
#95- Yes. I agree.
#96- Ridiculous!! Socialism kills people? And what's that have to do with this ,anyway? It wasn't socialism itself that killed people in the Soviet union (Stalin). It was brutal dictatorship. And the Nazis?? Another brutal dictator and just plain wacko nutjob (Hitler). Add up all of the wars that have been fought on this earth in recorded history ,where religions were the main impetus. Add up the deaths. It would be a very very large number. It divides people. It causes wars. It causes the kinds of disputes like in this blog (which blows me away, since it's a Rush site).
#99
I dont see how Atheism would be a religion, at all.
#100 Rush!!! That will always be the line that best describes me
#101 Atheism has the same arrogance as religions to claim they know what happens when we die or if there is or isn't an afterlife. They are phenotypically different but their skeleton is essentially the same.
Neil would dig all the discussion about his lyrics. He reads these message boards. This discussion is healthy. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The setlist could improve. Some tunes that have been played on every tour need to be dropped. Tom Sawyer.
#96: "By defending myself against the Jew I am doing the work of the Lord" - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, page 66. While the Nazis were absolutely bonkers and evil, they were not necessarily atheistic. In fact, many Nazis loathed the official atheism of the communists.
#93: Interesting point about Rush fans being religious. I referred to myself in a previous post as a Christian, and I do consider myself that. But I don't consider myself religious. I don't take the Bible literally, in most cases, but I do take it seriously. I get the impression Neil is similar in the sense that he doesn't take religious dogma seriously at all, but he obviously ponders the big questions often. "I can't help thinking big..."
Rush is awesome who's with me???
wow , lots of "experts" on religion and "atheism" around here. haha. what a joke.
Has anyone pointed out yet that the new songs are intended to be part of a larger story? Didn't Neil write that in one of his online entries? If that's the case, I'd say let's wait until the full album comes out. I mean, it's called Clockwork ANGELS for some reason.
Apparently the phrase "clockwork orange" refers to something that appears to be one thing, but is something else on the inside. It could also refer to a mechanically responsive man ("clockwork" and "orang" - Malaysian for "man" as in "orangutan.")
I'm wondering if Neil's theme for the album will be a play on that idea, instead of clockwork humans, clockwork angels. Mechanically responsive angels. And perhaps those angels are merely what we want them to be.
I shouldn't even submit this nutty post, but I think I will anyway.
#106: I am - yes RUSH IS AWESOME!
#107: Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm an academic in the general field. I wouldn't use the term "expert" (don't like it) but I suppose that could be a relative term.
#108 Yeah I saw that, in a lot of the interviews the words "concept" "story" pop out quite a bit when, especially Neil, talk about the upcoming album.
Christianity...Atheism...Nazis? Seriously?
Don't know how the conversation turned to the last part. Honestly, I don't have the patience or interest to read through all these posts. Faith is a personal matter, and it's pointless to try and argue which side is right. Select the set of beliefs, or lack of, that suit you best. Don't worry about being on the "winning side." If you agree with Neil - awesome, if you disagree with Neil and still like the band - cool, if you disagree with Neil but decided to leave the concert - great. But ask yourself if you really believe what you're saying if you have to convince others and win their approval.
There will always be people that we don't see eye to eye with. However, the generalizations made in this thread about Christians and atheists are absurd. Let's focus our attention back RUSH please.
Actually, #107, I HAVE done a lot of study about these matters. Hope you don't break any bones laughing.
I actually want to talk about the "Freewill" quote for a moment. The idea of predestination is largely the product of Calvinism in Christianity. Most other religions, especially those Eastern in nature, ABSOLUTELY assume that humans have freedom; it's just that the exercise of freedom creates causes and effects that can play out over multiple lifetimes/dimensions. I take "Freewill" to be less about Religion As A Whole than about the component that implies we are powerless over our destinies.
#112 That last sentence is the winner
Rush is AWESOME.
In a democracy, opinions that upset everyone are sometimes exactly what we need. We should be teaching our children the scientific method and the Bill of Rights. [Carl Sagan & Ann Druyan]
we need a new tour date thread...damn...heck of a time for the guys to take a break!!
#112..wow...mucho impressivo. You can say what you want ,about the song "Freewill", but unless I hear or see or read Neil himself say that was what HE meant in the lyrics, that's still your interpretation, no matter how much you "know" about the history of religion or any subject. Like #109 said (and I dont think he got my sarcasm)...the word "expert" can be a relative word. None of this is cut and dried. It's not 2+2=4 kind of stuff.
You know how many people out there who don't know squat about religion....actually believe people are predestined or believe in "fate"??? Or the amount of times I have heard people spout off "everything happens for a reason" or phrases like that? Most of those people haven't studied religion.
New thread please.
Anywhos, great show, sorry I only got standing, last i check upper deck was available, but filled up in about 6 hrs. But had a blast, hope to see some RIAB peeps in Homdel, NJ
Only took till reply #96 for Godwin's Law to make an appearance.
link
#117 nice to hear the show was great! sept 21 is so far away, sad face
Uggh....Is anyone here enjoying this thread less than I am?
Just wow on the religous tone, angle, implication, meaning was the reason for leaving ths show, midset at that. Can someone in a nutshell outline what was meant?
I'm too tired right now to attempt to take all of those messages in. With that said; I do know one thing, all of a sudden my comment about being over Donna is a distant memory...
Jones Beach staff was OK as far as I know, they weren't going out of their way up by the stage to ruin people's nights. i've heard plenty of people say it sucked there, but maybe things changed or I was just not near any jerks (except myself, of course!). I saw one guy tell someone to stop shooting video and only take pictures. that is so shitty, everyone knows that after every show 100 people are going to have vids posted, and many people in from up close. I got plenty, and saw others doing the same, so it kinda sucks to be the guy who got shut down and then had to worry about being booted for starting again. sometimes i think of just leaving the camera home, i am fully aware that it would be so cool to not have that 'burden' of wanting to have the digital souveniers, and it seems Alex would agree because he seems tired of it all (although sometimes he poses for people so who knows?). However, with the prices of technology allowing everyday people to do such wonderful things, well, it's just too tempting. I like to get 3 or 4 good pics from each show (which requires shooting about 80). As far as video, I am lucky to go to many shows, therefore I can strategically plan on getting 2 or 3 songs each show and then having a lot and also being able to enjoy the shows more. ho-hum! seems it would be better if i were born 100 years ago, or maybe 100 years from now when we have multi-angle cameras in the rims of our hats and they take perfect video anytime we want effortlessly...lol!!! did i just write a bunch if bla bla bla again??
Went to the show at Jones Beach and it was a real great night! Hot as anything that day but at least it was more tolerable there by the ocean, but wish it was a little cooler! I think that Jones Beach is a great venue for concerts and it was really easy getting in and out of there. Bring food or buy in the place in the parking lot if you need to, but inside the prices are crazy and no alcohol served. But they would charge a least $15 a drink if they did!
I was really glad that they did "Marathon" in the first set this is one they didn't do in long time and is a great song. The also did a few others there that are ones that they did not do before or in a long time that are not as well known like; Presto, Stick It Out and Faithless in the middle of the first set so if you aren't a real dedicated fan the middle of the first set may seem a bit slow. BU2B a new song in the first set sounded great and was very heavy as was Caravan which was in the second set!
The second set was awesome! The opened with doing the whole Moving Pictures album! They included for the first time in many years "Closer To The Heart". The encore was as good as it gets with "La Villa Strangiato" and "Working Man".
The sound was good, but I think the Bass was a little to heavy to the guitars. But overall another great show by a great band!
In terms of all the discussion on Neil's religious views expressed in his lyrics, the bottom line is he is expressing his beliefs and is not imposing these views on you. I do like a lot of his lyrics, although I don't necessary like all of them for different reasons, but he definitely always had a very unique and thoughtful approach to his lyrics.
Anyway no one really knows what happens when we pass away and the best approach is to live a good life by being good to each other and that's basically what Neil is saying in "Faithless"! I chose to believe that there is a God, but to me that makes live more meaningful, but there are a lot of problems with the way some practice religion. Many use religion to divide themselves from those without their beliefs and even in some cases there is violence to those who practice a different faith or even those with the same faith that are different from themselves. There is also a lot of hypocrisy on what religion supposed to stand for and how many who claim to be righteous actually live their lives.
drmike - thx for the camera eye link, i'm sure a staffer is going to find a good version and show Alex!!
if anyone finds a good vid of Tom Sawyer where it shows ALEX during his break when he goof off PLEASE send me a personal message because during that time I had pink letters held up in the front row spelling out his name (first name...lol!!) and he turned into a comedian (imagine that!)! He lowered his brow and was was pointing out the letters and naking facial expressions pretending as if he could not read!! Thanks Alex, a nod would have sufficed and made our night, but what you did really made it worth the trip (again..lol). plz msg me, don't just post it because after 4 shows in a row it's time to go back to work and I only sporadically look at the blogs :-)
RE: #20, #101 et al...
I'm a Christian and am not offended by Neil's lyrics. I appreciate and respect his POV and use it to re-examine/re-inforce my own beliefs and views. He's brilliant but I don't always agree with him. But, hey who wants to live in an echo chamber?
I find BU2B's lyrics to be painfully shallow, even adolescent in its approach to christian theology. Still, I really dig the music and that's enough for me.
#101 : The tired old 'religion causes wars' argument. Misguided ideologies have racked up more bodies than all religious wars put together and then some. Please look into National Socialism, Pol Pot, Stalinist Russia, modern-day Burma/Myanmar, Bulgaria, Angola, North Korea and Mozambique for a primer.
Added bonus rant: The US is an election cycle behind. Europe, in many corners, is doing its best to shed socialism (Holland, Germany, France, Czech, Hungary, Poland). England is working towards de-centralizing its national healthcare system. Why is this happening if socialism was such a worthwhile endeavour?
#94 - "And ...this is exactly one of the things that pushed me away from religion years ago. " How could I have guessed that you were a secular liberal who got tired of religion? (Some 20 threads ago you admitted to being a liberal.)
Liberals always blame religion for all the wars. Quite typical.
When they completely disregard the works of atheist leaders, which is of far greater proportions.
They will answer that Hitler was Catholic!!!
Ain't it frustrating being an open minded person in a world full of closed minded people?
#127- hey NUTTY guy...I never once "admitted" such a thing and it's frankly none of your business if I am or not. And if I was, so what!
#127- Oh and, you are wayyyyyyyyy too "political" for me, buddy...and not in an intellectual, well informed way either. Religion and politics don't mix, as far as I am concerned. You like to pigeonhole people as "liberal" ,etc. It's kinda nutty, I think..Patrush.
And the men who hold high places
Must be the ones to start
To mould a new reality
Closer to the Heart
The Blacksmith and the Artist
Reflect it in their art
Forge their creativity
Closer to the Heart
Philosophers and Ploughmen
Each must know his part
To sow a new mentality
Closer to the Heart
You can be the Captain
I will draw the Chart
Sailing into destiny
Closer to the Heart
RUSH ON !!!
FYI - Rush is just a band...they are not anything otherwise. Its just entertainment (Ged's mom "oh so your an entertainer!...now I get it"). if you think of it with that in mind alot of this religious stigmata would not be a problem. Its not preaching..its just a point of view...and all of Rush's music is just that. Unless you personally know these guys...just enjoy it like a book, or a movie, or a piece of food, or... some kind of fabric thing. If you don't like it "spit it out" and move on. And I was brought up to be an openen-minded Christian by the way. Now lets ROCK!!!!
PS - I was trying to avoid getting involved in all of this BS but....Its stupid!!! Okay there i said it
Mike #132... Well stated...
Dito on your #133 as well...
RUSH ON !!!
Hey #134 David....it's 1am here in Chicago, I have to get up for work at 7am. I think I have time for some 'Signals' before I call it a night. Here's to 'the summer of RUSH!!'
May there be many more...Cheers!!
We can walk our road together
If our goals are all the same
We can run alone and free
If we pursue a different aim
Let the truth of love be lighted
Let the love of truth shine clear
Sensibility
Armed with sense and liberty
With the Heart and Mind united
In a single perfect sphere
*or*
Rent a nice French bomb to poof them out of existence....
#93 - "I am actually surprised there are so many ,if even any Rush fans that are religious."
Well, for me, in a word, the music. It's always been about the music for me. The textures, the craftsmanship, the sonic art. I've never given a rats hind end about any band's lyrics, honestly. To me, lyrics are just a vehicle for the singer's voice (in this case, Geddy). But that's just me and my twisted likes. It could all be instrumental and just creating textures with the voice and I'd be just as happy.
I hope the new album is not laced with all these types of songs dealing with faith Neils beliefs. It's getting pretty old now for me since S&A . I hope Neil can get through this phase of his life before the band retires and actually writes a few songs not as dark as they have been lately. Understandably with all the bad stuff that happened in his life in the past he may be beyond some feel good lyrics at this point. I guess a modern day song like Red Barchetta is out of the question at this point. Seems like life is so serious in his recent lyrics i just want to have some fun listening but maybe faithless and other songs in that vain are what modern day Rush fans want to hear.
I rarely post but I feel the need to put in my 2 cents on this religious thread.
First of all, I find it amazing that anyone could follow Rush for any length of time and suddenly be offended by their views on religion.
My interpretation of Faithless is that Neil would rather rely on himself, to make his own decisions then have to follow a doctrine that might contradict his own instinct. Which, IMO is great advice.
Having read the bible cover to cover...twice, I continually find it amazing the level of intolerence in so many so called Christians. Isn't that one of the basic teachings of Chrisitanity? You don't have to live by the lyrics of a song in order to enjoy it. Should all non-smokers denouce the song, Smokin in the boys room? The 'My God's bigger than your God' attitude is what causes so much termoil in the world. If we'd all just lighten up a bit, we'd realize most things that get people so stirred up, really aren't that big of a deal at the end of the day.
I also think that #20 missed a real teaching moment with his son. What better way to teach a yound mind to be able to deal with things you don't necessarily subscribe to. Instead you taught him that if you don't agree with something, you just turn your back on it instead of taking the time to make up your own mind.
To get back your 'faith' in Rush, give Totem Pole a spin. The lyrics are spot on in that there is no one religion that gets it completety right. Instead, draw upon all the ideas from all beliefs that work for you as an individual and then go forth and rock!!
#140 - Amen brother (or sister)....very well said...couldn't agree with you more!
#140-
You said it pretty well.
#139-
Actually, I feel the same. Not because I've been "offended" but Neil's lyrics when they are dealing with faith or religion, so much as I am just feeling kind of tired of that being a "theme" for his lyrics. Honestly, I have to say I haven't really enjoyed his lyrics as much the last few albums. Not as much as in past albums, anyway. Again, that's a subjective thing though, because there's probably some people who think his best lyrics have been on the last few albums. I'm not saying I think they are "bad" lyrics either, I'm just saying personally , I haven't really liked the direction his lyrics have gone the last few albums, or their music for that matter. For me, the height of Rush's greatness was Permanent Waves through to Roll the bones. I love stuff from before and after thos albums ,but I think their best work was in those years ,including keyboards and synths, even if Alex said "those aren't really instruments!" in the Rush documentary. That got under my skin, because 1. They were real instruments. 2. That was insulting to Geddy, because he played those instruments. 3. I believe ,like Geddy said "you could say maybe those were our best albums" when they were discussing the use of keyboards in Rush's music. I do think those were Rush's best albums (Permanent waves- Roll the bones).
Anyway, I started off talking about Neil's "faith and religion" themes for lyrics and I went off on another tangent about Rush's music. Oops.
#20-If BU2B and Faithless chased you from being a Rush fan I have one question for you... How did you make it past the pentagram on 2112 and ATWAS? I will never understand how so called christians can be so judge mental. The Pass must have also slipped under your Religionadar too... >CHRIST, What Have You Done?!< Taking the "Lord's" name in vain?! Tisk, tisk....
#142 - agree on all counts.
Actually, the pentagram was a Christian symbol. Anti-Christians "perverted" its meaning by inverting it.
@ #91
Re: Faithless
dumb lyrics?
"but I still cling to hope.
And I believe in love
and that's faith enough for me."
LOL - I can see how those things are oh so terrible.
I'm sure Neil would love it if you told him his recent lyrics were dumb.
go check your history #145
it was used long before christianity.
The Jones Beach show was amazing! It's great to see the boys playing so well and enthusiastically. I've been to every tour since Moving Pictures and believe this was the best gig yet. Nice to see that the venue was completely sold out.
The videos had us rolling with laughter -- who would have thought Geddy and Alex could pull off the rolls so well? Also enjoyed the way the band altered the tempo on a couple of the song intros, anyone know if they're filming the tour for video release?
This thread has been littered with personal agendas.
This just in. BU2B is a religious based song and since Clockwork Angels is supposed to be a concept record it is safe to think that the concept is......well....you know. I'm contemplating a law suit. I thought the next record was supposed to be about steroids in baseball. That's what Geddy told me.
bdc -- thanks for your first RIAB posts. including the nutty one...:) all high quality, whether one agrees w. them or not, and not trying to rile anyone up.
good thread for the most part, imo.
May God forgive us all for being Rush fans ;)
Great concert, great energy, especially during "The Camera Eye" obviously, during the New York section. Was it me, or did Geddy genuinely get irritated when one of the pitcher girls refused to leave the stage, and kept mugging for the crowd? I felt sorry for him. We are off to Ged's side of the stage in orchestra, and saw the girls walk away near the end of the show, looking all self-satisfied.
Oh, and Dave got to shake Ray Danniels' hand!! Cool.
RE:#20..and all that has followed.
I respect #20's choice to leave the concert, however as a Christian myself that wouldn't be my choice.
It doesn't matter what someone else says or sings, my faith
will not be weaken or changed.
When I go to a rock concert I don't expect to agree with
everything I hear. I go for the music, the atmoshere and to see my favorite musicians.
Its not like going to a church that believes something different than you.
As I have stated on here before, I love BU2B...when I hear it I hear a discription of the word "faith" Yes, faith is believing something "blindly". Many people don't understand that. I believe in things that don't make sense or can't be reasoned out, but I choose to believe.
Neil is a very intelligent guy and very well read, therefore its even harder for him to understand or except anything he can't reason out. It only makes sense that something that has impacted his life so much, in the form of tragedy, that he wants to write about it and how he struggles to understand.
He will probably continue to stay on that theme as long as he can't figure it out.
For me that makes no difference, I will continue to be a fan of RUSH and I will continue to have friends who don't believe the same as I.....we are all equal.
I knew a guy who had a friend who was a rush fan and christian...He would get so mad at Neil's lyrics that he felt he had to rewrite them himself..I wish I had the lyrics he rewrote but I only ever read them over my firiends house once and that was in the early 90's..but I do remember that "Presto" became "Preacho" and "Roll the Bones" became "Roll the Sermons" some funny stuff be he wasnt trying to be funny... He thought Neil was always preaching through his lyrics and it upset him sooooo...but every new cd he was there and bought it??? Never understood...
#154-
You have a healthy, good attitude. I am not religious or practice any faith, but can respect that others do. Anyway, good post!
See, the thing is..(and the song 'faithless' touches on this)...the guys in Rush are GOOD PEOPLE, whether they practice any faith or religion or not. I think people like the person who wrote post #154 can see that, even though they practice a faith.
Fascinating thread. I wonder who would leave a Rush show if they played The Necromancer. It does clearly refer to sorcery. Or 2112, which is the individual against society - compared to the Faithless lyric "I've got my own moral compass to steer by." Or Hemispheres, which clearly states "the gods of Love and Reason sought alone to rule the fate of man" without any mention of a supreme divine being. Or Which Hunt, which is clearly subversive ("Calm in their right, confident their ways are best").
I just read through the lyrics for BU2B and Faithless again - BU2B seems to me to be directed at those who blindly follow, without question (like the mob in Witch Hunt). "The loving Watchmaker loves us all to death" - well, isn't that a basic idea behind most religions? God loves you, but also decides when it is time for you to die. What if the lyric were "UNTIL death"? In Faithless Neil never states he is Faithless, it says "You can call me Faithless." The lyrics about the stone resisting the spring tide and the cliffs resisting the ocean are pretty cool - the cliffs will be eroded by the ocean over time.
Art should inspire and move you - sometimes that emotion may be joy, sometimes anger. I'd personally rather have lyrics that make me think and question.
R...ruling
U...under
S...satan's
H...helm
anyone remember that from the eighties?
To all you christians out there who don't like Rush's lyrics, all I can say is GOOD! See you later and don't slam the door on your way out. Read further for proof of why I don't like organized religion.
During the 80's my religious Jr. High band instructor showed our class a video about all these bands that were supposedly satanic. One of them was Rush. They said that the Pentagram was proof that Rush were satanic. I was completely shocked....how could they say this about Rush? They just don't understand....Living in a small town, this was not my only experience with this crap growing up.
I was also mormon for 3 months as a teenager. I had a crush on a girl, and I got sucked into the LDS church during that time because of it. I went to a huge gathering of LDS kids at a camp somewhere in Washington State. I spoke in front of thousands of kids saying things like how this was the "True Church of Jesus". But then, they got some of us together and started talking about rock music. They said that Rush were a group associated with the devil because of the pentagram, and that the naked guy was a guy who had accepted satan.
After that experience and telling the adults in that group they were wrong (they didn't believe me) I quit the church as they did not truly understand what that album or Rush was about. Back then there was no explanation from the band about what 2112 was, only speculation, but I understood what the lyrics meant.
I will chose a path that's clear, I will choose FREEWILL
#159 Good for you....couldn't agree more.
Bottom line, Jones Beach show was awesome as usual... based upon earlier comments, it looks like the boys hit their stride just before the break. Those of you that were there, it would have been nice to hear your opinions on it, however this thread was hijacked early on into a debate on Rush vs Religion. So thanks for that.
My one negative experience was the early sales, I could have gotten much better seats if I simply logged on and bought one from the venue.
WOW!! What a thread indeed with many great posts!
#157 KGMD-MONEY POST! You nailed it and absolutely well put. Your Faithless explanation is the same for BU2B as well. I'm lovin the fact the Rush stories haven't ended! Can't wait to see and hear Clockwork Angels as a finished product.
Anyway to derail this, any RIAB wanna meet up before the Sept 3rd show for some brews/talegating?
I don't have time to read the entire thread (so I apologize if this point has been made already), but I wanted to respond to #20:
You've been listening to Free Will for 30 years and only NOW are you noticing Neil's disdain for religion???
Personally, I considered Faithless-BU2B-FreeWill to be an "atheist trifecta", and as an atheist I was perfectly happy with it.
Came up from Charleston SC to see the show, since its been a tradition to see them at that venue since 97. Spectacular as always! There was a beautiful full moon to my left. The first set was great and I was excited to hear BU2B live. Sadly, people still get up during the new songs to use the bathrooms, but to each thier own I guess. Faithless sounded awesome! The 2nd set was astonishing and I felt the collective energy of the venue go into high gear. The effects and video backdrops were all amazing, using humor and mind blowing effects and pyrotechnics. I also loved the beautiful bar maids on stage(a first for Rush, I think). One thing missing from the effects was the laser lights, but they didnt play any of the songs they usually couple with that effect. I hope they bring them back on the next tour. We all had a blast! Well, good luck and good health to Rush and crew for the remainder of the tour!
i said this the last time this topic fired up the blogs: Neil is on record from S&A interviews as saying he makes painstaiking efforts (out of necessity i'm sure) to be very careful not to be overtly offensive on such topics. he has succeeded 100% in revealing his ideas in the most benign manner possible. in fact, to be able to say what he says and do it in a manner so consistent with extreme benevolence is one of his top lyrical accomplishments (along with Entre Nous..lol!!!). We love RUSH because they take on intellectual topics as no rock band ever has. it is inevitable that somewhere along the journey a few people would be put-off. that is as fine with me as i'm sure it is with them.
"We hold beliefs as a consolation...
A way to take us out of ourselves..."
when that consolation is taken away, or threatened or questioned, it (potentially) leaves us with nothing BUT ourselves. raw and naked homo sapiens. exposed, if you will. for many people that prospect falls between terrifying and unmanageable. that is not a dig or an insult to anyone, it is basic behavorial science that has no agenda and makes no judgement.
Neil seems best described as a 'Humanists" (a very fast growing segment of population, and i recall described as such just a short time ago right here on this blog by Mrs. Donna Halper,). This whole blog topic makes me think of another great line by Alex's back-up drummer, er, um, i mean NEIL (ha ha, you know who i go to see!) "...i can get along with all the things i can't explain..."
that line is genius of poetry because in one line it summarizes our entire species' thousands of years of grappling with this topic (and if i'm wrong, Neil DID say that it's OK for me to interpret it differently than his intent...lol!).
it seems everyone was mostly friendly here and that's nice to see, thanks.
I feel a sad for the man who left the concert, and he said he was sad. if this band, whom which my entire world of music and entertainment revolves around, would ever turn me away in a similar manner, I would be absolutely emotionally devastated because of how much they mean to me in so many ways.
post #20 shows intelligence, writing skill, and in no objective interpretation bashed the band. the guy said he's been to over 20 RUSH shows, he knows how great they are, and this is not easy for him and is ripping him apart in some ways. he had to get it off his chest and i think he did so in a good respectful way. for those of us who agree with the Neil's writings, we should have no problem whatsoever having those words challenged in a peaceful manner that from what i have seen has induced many of us to interject which serves the positive function of reaffirming where we all stand. in addition, there may be some who have not really devuldged into the topic at this depth, and now, for better or worse, are better informed as to what this band RUSH is about (not that i see this topic as the primary defining facet of).
Oh my, did i, after resisting for days and days, just write a long-ass post on this topic!?!?!?!
D'oh!!!!!!
I'm going to chime in with post #165 that Faithless did sound awesome.
Jesus is a myth....discuss
I know I shouldn't, but I'm going to jump in here anyway. This really responds to #89 and #20, and as I review the thread, about 75% of the rest of this thread.
I'm a Christian, just not of the variety that is prepared to judge people or adopt a position that says I have the absolute view of all and nobody else is allowed to have a thought. I think it is a pretty mainstream kind of view, and when Neil writes on this topic, he rarely distinguishes between mainstream kind of beliefs versus harmful zealot belief systems. Some of that is probably an unintentional consequence of short songs, but I'm sure some of it is intentional.
I've listened to Rush since forever, and there are a couple of things that have been bothering me with Neil's lyrics of late. One, it is getting tiresome to get this same topic over and over in the lyrics. I get it that in his ideal world nobody would have any religious beliefs, and we would all believe in love and ourselves and hope and happy, and I definitely catch the vibe that if I have a religious belief, I'm not too bright. I've gotten that message pretty clearly during the past few albums. Neil's not about to shape my religious views, however. He's entitled to his opinions and he's a creative writer and whatever. Not that big a deal to me what he chooses to write about. What is starting to concern me is that some of these songs are taking on (and I ask you to excuse me in advance for this but I can't think of a better word) a hymn-like quality. We will all learn the lyrics, and sing/think them at our Rush concerts, everybody together, in the first person, let's sing our mutually shared mantra:
I don't have faith in faith
I don't believe in belief
You can call me faithless
I still cling to hope
And I believe in love
And that's faith enough for me
My reaction? Great. Here's another Rush song that is musically really cool that I can't really sing because I'm just not singing those lyrics in the first person. Yeah, the sentiment is nice enough I guess, but this is not where I'm pinning the spiritual basis of my life. And I love to sing in the car on the drive home, and I really enjoy Rush, but I just can't sing these kinds of songs, so I end up skipping them, and it is a source of frustration. This is supposed to be a form of entertainment for me. I don't want to get beat up or asked to question my faith in this thing.
I guess that's enough meandering for me. Probably not very good comments, I don't know, but I thought I'd hit it from this aspect.
When it comes to religion, George Carlin said it best LOL
link
Seems to me that alot of Christians in this blog are quite paranoid about being
converted into something else. There is no need to feel offended. As was said before, Neil is just stating his opinion and his observations. I think he actually
thinks that we should all practice FREEWILL. He is against negative collectivism
and nothing more.....
on a lighter note...
finally uploaded my photos to the gallery, CORRECTLY this time (thanks, ed). great shots from 3rd row, center. everyone should check them out. may upload more, later.
again, kudos to the family of mini-Pratt.
@ 169 -
I just don't see what so horrible about saying these lines in Faithless
"I still cling to hope
And I believe in love"
and God forbid you question your own faith....
@169 -
I can't stand Pina Coladas but that doesn't stop me from singing the Pina Colada song whenever it's on the radio in the car.
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